Episode 28 / Tyler Merritt
Tyler Merritt’s Take on Allyship, Inclusion and The Privilege of Imposter Syndrome
This episode is for you if you’ve ever wondered:
How Tyler navigated the acting industry by creating his own opportunities instead of waiting to be chosen.
The importance of recognizing and managing fear and ambition for mental health and healthy ambition.
Insights into Tyler’'s book "I Take My Coffee Black" and its approach to allyship, education, and humor.
The significance of understanding and experiencing life from different perspectives to challenge societal assumptions.
The necessity of diverse representation and inclusion in leadership roles within business
About Tyler
Tyler Merritt is a Nashville-based actor, comedian, vocalist, and creator of The Tyler Merritt Project. His television credits include ABC's Kevin Probably Saves The World, Netflix's Messiah, Netflix's Outer Banks, Apple TV+'s series Swagger, Disney+/Marvel's series Falcon and the Winter Soldier, NBC’s Ordinary Joe, Lifetimes Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff, and A24’s upcoming feature film The Inspection.
His viral video "Before You Call The Cops" (released by The Tyler Merritt Project) has been viewed by over 100 million people worldwide and voted one of the Top 20 videos of the year by NowThisPolitics.
He is also the author of the memoir I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith and Being Black in America.
“We can live in a place where our ambition and our anxiety are not fighting against each other. It's possible, but we need to be able to recognize both of those things and if they're doing the good thing with them.”
Tyler Merritt
-
Lindsey Epperly [00:00:02]:
All right. Tyler Merritt, I feel like I should have pressed record about 20 minutes ago when we first started talking because we're already fast friends.
Tyler Merritt [00:00:08]:
We are already deep in the bag. Like, your people have missed the magic that happened from the time we clicked on it. Did.
Lindsey Epperly [00:00:16]:
It did. And I told myself I wasn't going to start our conversation with a controversial topic, but I got to talk to you about bananas.
Tyler Merritt [00:00:23]:
Oh. So let me tell you what's funny. I just had a doctor appointment. Yeah. Like, two days ago. And right before we got onto this zoom, my doctor called me and she said, dude, your numbers look great because I've been training and losing weight and everything, but she goes, oddly enough, your potassium is really high.
Lindsey Epperly [00:00:46]:
Oh, it's high, right?
Tyler Merritt [00:00:48]:
It's high, right. And I said, because I think I've started taking some supplements. I think that have helped that. But never in my life has my potassium been high, because bananas are potassium. And.
Lindsey Epperly [00:01:00]:
No, like, so if a listener is not familiar with you, that's. This is, like, first and foremost, Tyler hates bananas. This. I feel like I. This comes up on every podcast episode, and I didn't want you to miss the opportunity to bring it up here.
Tyler Merritt [00:01:12]:
Is it worse?
Lindsey Epperly [00:01:14]:
Is it an unpopular opinion? Like, do you find other people are like, no, no, Tyler, I love or do a lot more people not like him?
Tyler Merritt [00:01:20]:
I feel like very few people have mild opinions about bananas. Meaning, like, most people are either, like, I can't believe you hate bananas. Or they're like, of course you hate bananas, because they're the worst. And so I feel like the. Like, I feel like our taste buds, I have. I am down to have proximity to almost everyone, right? Like, I want to be close to you. I want to get to know you. But if you like bananas, that tells me that our taste buds are different.
Tyler Merritt [00:01:57]:
Like, we are just built differently.
Lindsey Epperly [00:02:00]:
This is so funny. It's so funny because when I found that out about you, it had me start thinking about, like, what unpopular opinions do I possess? You know, like. Or what is this an unpopular opinion? Um, and which mostly I could come up with. I am. I'm not really a big fan of labradoodles. Like, I think that that's my unpopular. Right. I probably just lost.
Lindsey Epperly [00:02:19]:
I lost all my listenership.
Tyler Merritt [00:02:20]:
Yeah. I feel like people just, like, turned this podcast off. They were like, I'm done. I don't know how. Why labradoodles?
Lindsey Epperly [00:02:28]:
No, I just think it's because maybe it's so common culture to like them, and I just. I've always had, like, small yippie dogs. And so maybe it's just the bigness and the kind of, like, they look like a muppet. I don't know. But they are very sweet, so I'm not. I don't dislike them. I'm just. Let's talk about something that we can.
Lindsey Epperly [00:02:43]:
We really have in common, though. You love total eclipse of the heart. I saw you post this the other day. It's. It is the best song.
Tyler Merritt [00:02:50]:
So I have loved that song for as long as I can remember. Like, granted, if. If. If you are listening this podcast for the first time and you can't see it, do you. Do you have a visual component?
Lindsey Epperly [00:03:05]:
Yes, we do. So you do. They need to go watch the video. If you're about to do something, if.
Tyler Merritt [00:03:09]:
You'Re listening and you can't see this and you don't know me, you need to understand that I am a six foot two black man with dreadlocks. But what I am about to say is about to sound about as white and basic as possible in the world. But totally. Clips of the Heart and Bonnie Tyler is arguably one of the best songs ever written in the world, ever. And I recognize this at a very young age, and it attached to me. Once upon a time, I was falling in love, but now I'm only falling apart. I mean, come on.
Lindsey Epperly [00:03:46]:
It just kills just hearing you say it.
Tyler Merritt [00:03:48]:
Come on. I don't care who you are. That's a good line.
Lindsey Epperly [00:03:52]:
Yeah. I completely agree. And I don't know. I hope this is not disrespectful to Bonnie Tyler, but it is my go to karaoke song, and I don't have the best karaoke voice, but it's so. So listen to this. Tyler, this would have been meant for you. Okay? I got in an Uber in Miami last month, and the driver turns around with a microphone in his hand and says, do you like karaoke? And I was like, well, yeah, I like karaoke. Do you have total eclipse of the heart? And I got to belt with three friends.
Lindsey Epperly [00:04:17]:
Total eclipse of the heart and an Uber. Isn't that, like, have you ever had that happen to you?
Tyler Merritt [00:04:22]:
I have not had that happen. But let me. Let me say this. People that know me well, I'm not a karaoke fan because I sang all my life, right?
Lindsey Epperly [00:04:31]:
So you're actually good at it.
Tyler Merritt [00:04:32]:
Those of us who singers were like, unless we're in a room full of singers and we've all gotten together to just do karaoke, karaoke is usually like, but I love watching people do karaoke. I love seeing people do karaoke. And the fact that there was an Uber driver that was like, this is the karaoke Uber makes me want to give him a five rating where I want to find him and rate him just because of this conversation.
Lindsey Epperly [00:04:59]:
Zachary, I completely agree. Next time you're in Miami, he's somewhere around.
Tyler Merritt [00:05:03]:
Yeah, let me tell next time in Miami, I'm going to start taking Ubers and I'm going to, like, get into the car and be like, wait, are you the karaoke guy? And they're like, no. Like, skateboarding. I'm on a mission.
Lindsey Epperly [00:05:12]:
Side note, for any of my team from Jetset World travel listening to this, we need to actually add this into our client itineraries that are going to Miami. This is. Have I not thought to pull this into our travel planning? Okay. All right. We have covered the most basic facts. Now, what I want to get.
Tyler Merritt [00:05:25]:
Wait, hold on a second. Let's go with the fact that it is very clear that you and I, I don't know who you are listening to this podcast or what you're used to, but it is obvious that you and I could probably talk for an hour about not anything.
Lindsey Epperly [00:05:41]:
Correct, but I want to talk about the things like the real.
Tyler Merritt [00:05:44]:
Okay.
Lindsey Epperly [00:05:46]:
As I read your book and I seen your videos, and I'm like, tyler, you bring such an incredible perspective that listeners, as much as they know you, want to hear us talk about bananas. We need to hear you talk about real things because you're so good at it. Okay, so I want to talk about, first and foremost, the show is called who made you the boss? Because the kind of, like, cheeky answer to that when we're creatives or we're entrepreneurs, is like, I made myself the boss, and now I have to live up to that and figure, right. There's, like, a realm of leadership we're stepping into. And you've really been able to do this. And, you know, even in your book, you're like, I'm Tyler, and I build things. You're Tyler and you build things. Like, everyone needs to go read your book.
Lindsey Epperly [00:06:22]:
I take my coffee black. And we're going to get really deep into it today. But so I don't want you necessarily tell us, like, the whole story of how you got to where you're going, but, like, what gave you permission to be that kind of leader? To actually step up and say, I'm Tyler and I build things? Like, how did you hear?
Tyler Merritt [00:06:37]:
Here's something that I realized more at a later age. I've always been building things but I don't think I realized that that's who I was and what I was doing until I was kind of forced to look back and figure out how I got to where I am. Right? And I'll say this. I'm an actor. I do a lot of things, so I'm an actor and an author and all of those things. But as an actor, 99% of your job is waiting around for someone to pick you. Like, that's most of your job. So if.
Tyler Merritt [00:07:14]:
If. And anybody who's an actor or performer that's listening to this right now, they just let out a big, huge amen. Cause they know what that is. Like, where we'll get an audition in and it's for something great that can be life changing or super special. You put this audition down, and then we're trained to just forget about it. Meaning, like, do the audition and just put it out in the world and forget about it. You can't forget about an audition when you're auditioning for. I just recently auditioned for.
Tyler Merritt [00:07:45]:
They're doing a reboot of the movie naked. The naked gun. Do you remember the naked gun back in the days?
Lindsey Epperly [00:07:52]:
I mean, like, I don't think I saw it, but I know what you're talking about.
Tyler Merritt [00:07:55]:
Okay. It's. It's right be out of your. Your age group here. But anyways, it's getting remade. It's gonna be a big deal. When it came into my email, I was like, holy cow, I would love to be a part of this movie. But so much of my job as an actor is sitting around waiting for someone to go, yeah, you're right for the part.
Tyler Merritt [00:08:16]:
We choose you. And I just got to a point where I was like, I know what I'm capable of. I know what I do in the world. I know who I am, and I'm going to choose me. I'm going to choose me. Like, I don't need you to choose me anymore. Let me go and create my own things. Let me do my own things based on the fact that I know what I'm capable of.
Tyler Merritt [00:08:39]:
And that fight of, like, sitting around waiting to be picked and then also choosing myself was the thing that, for me, that said, bro, you can be the boss because you've always been the boss. Now. Now just go and claim it and walk in that.
Lindsey Epperly [00:08:56]:
Yes. Okay. Gosh, that's even better than the answer I expected you to have.
Tyler Merritt [00:09:00]:
Right?
Lindsey Epperly [00:09:00]:
Like, that is what I want listeners to hear, is to know that we have everything we need within us. It's just a matter of pursuing that confidence. That's why I asked the question of permission. And it struck me, even in your book, you wrote about having your tattoo driven. I think you said it was on your forearm. I'm motioning to my forearm as though I've seen it. You describe it in the book and how you kind of wore that in for a while of, like, wait, was this. Is this my.
Lindsey Epperly [00:09:27]:
My announcement to the world that this is, like, what I'm here for? Is there actually something deeper that I'm pursuing here? Like, for you? I think you said it was really tied a lot to the people pleasing element of wanting your dad's approval. And I am hyper obsessed lately with this idea of whether our ambition can exist without anxiety, because I think a lot of times we all find that right. Driven. But it's like being. Being driven by something not so healthy. How did you come to terms, especially as you just described, like, being able to seize that power and say, I. I have everything I need. Like, what did that look like for you to gather that confidence and separate it from kind of.
Lindsey Epperly [00:10:01]:
Some of the unhealthy parts of. Of that drive?
Tyler Merritt [00:10:03]:
Zachary, I think. Let me say this first. I think you are living in denial or an incredible, incredible, incredible, incredible amount of privilege. If you decide to go, I want to go be the boss or go do this thing, and I'm going to build it on my own. And you don't, on some level, immediately, the first thing that you don't feel is fear. Like, if that's not what you feel in the first beginnings of that decision, you either. I know. And when I say you've lived in a certain amount of privilege, meaning that you've maybe never failed at anything ever, and so you've just decided, whatever I put my hand to is going to be fine.
Tyler Merritt [00:10:39]:
Right. And most people in my life have never had that kind of assurance for anything. Right. So when you initially decide that you are going to. For lack, we'll just call it for lack of it. Or being a boss. Being the boss. If you don't feel fear initially, something's.
Lindsey Epperly [00:11:07]:
Probably weird, like, you're probably not an ego situation.
Tyler Merritt [00:11:11]:
Yeah. You're probably not dreaming big enough or, you know, but then you have to get to a point where that fear either drives you or it disintegrates. Because if you're carrying that fear, like you said, with anxiety, I find that it often really only fights against your creativity. It only fights against what you can become because you're constantly going, maybe I'm not in the right place. Maybe I'm not doing the right thing. Maybe I'm not. And we can't. We cannot allow ourselves to think that initial fear that we feel when we decide to be the boss, that we can't allow that initial fear to be the thing that fights against us as we continue to grow up this go up the ladder, we need to recognize it and go, this is normal because it's scary to do new things.
Tyler Merritt [00:12:08]:
And then we need to go, what are we going to do with this normal feeling? And then from there grow out of it.
Lindsey Epperly [00:12:14]:
Yes.
Tyler Merritt [00:12:14]:
So I don't know if that answers the exact question you were asking, but what I do know is, is that we can live in a place where our ambition and our anxiety are not fighting against each other. It's possible, but we need to be able to recognize both of those things and if they're doing the good thing with them, you know, if that fear we have is good and if our ambition is good and if it's set in the right place, if we're just out there in the world going, I'm so ambitious because I need my dad to be proud like I want to be. Like, why don't you start with therapy?
Lindsey Epperly [00:12:56]:
Correct. Although it's pretty self aware to know that that's why you have the ambition to begin with.
Tyler Merritt [00:13:01]:
Straight up.
Lindsey Epperly [00:13:02]:
Straight up. That was. Yes, that answered the question. And it answered so many more that I often ask guests because we talk a lot on the show about imposter syndrome, and everything that you just articulated has notes of that imposter syndrome when we first start. And my hot take on that is that it's only there because you're doing something that you haven't done before. It's actually a good thing. You would be doing it wrong if you didn't have it. So spot on.
Lindsey Epperly [00:13:27]:
100% marks on that answer. Fantastic. Tyler Merritt. So I want to talk a lot today about your book because that was what caused me to reach out to you. I started reading, I take my coffee black, and then you had me as a forever fan when you called yourself block woman, black women, how do you pronounce it?
Tyler Merritt [00:13:46]:
Which, if you're hearing that, you have to understand, it was a play on me talking about being Aquaman and then me realizing I'm black. So would I be Blaquaman?
Lindsey Epperly [00:13:56]:
It was so good. I laughed out loud. And then you really sealed the deal for me with all the Harry Potter references. So I'm like, tyler and I are going to jive. I need to meet this man, I just love everything he has to say. But this is funny to me. I mean, I read. I take my coffee black several months ago, and it stays with you because as an individual who is interested in allyship and is interested in education and growing herself and her perspective, your book is such a fantastic approach to that, and it's such a great teacher.
Lindsey Epperly [00:14:23]:
And this is funny because I. Do you watch stand up? Are you a stand up fan? Yeah. Brian Simpson, who is on Netflix. I watched him this weekend. And he's so funny. Cause he talks about, like, I don't wanna be your starter black friend. Like, I don't wanna take that response. And I thought, oh, that's why I take my coffee black is so good.
Lindsey Epperly [00:14:44]:
Because it's, like, your starter black friend, like, answers the questions. It provides a safe place. And you. You hold the tension so well between, like, kindness, you know, like, hey, friend, it's okay. Maybe you're learning about this for the first time. That's cool. You're safe here. And honesty of, oh, by the way, you have not been taught this in history books, but here's the.
Lindsey Epperly [00:15:05]:
Here's the facts, here's the truth. And so it just. I'm just. I'm saying all of this to compliment you and that the book is so wonderfully done and you really make such a poignant, you know, example whenever you're talking about, like, proximity breeds empathy, right? Like, in getting to know someone. And that's the through line. That's the through line. And I take my coffee black. That's the through line.
Lindsey Epperly [00:15:23]:
And before you call the cops, which listeners, if you have not seen Tyler's viral video before you call the cops, it is so poignant. And it's all about, you need to get to know me before you judge me, before you take action. So I want to camp out on that. Like, why. Why are we, as humans, just so quick to, you know, avoid the story and look at the statistic, to avoid the friend and look at the stranger. Like, why do we other ourselves just because we're different? Why do we do that?
Tyler Merritt [00:15:51]:
Sure. Well, first, let me say this about. I take my coffee black. I love when people love that book for a number of reasons. One, making the jokes like. Like blockaman and talking about Harry Potter. And there are moments in that book where I have. I literally said to myself, I can't believe someone let me write a book.
Tyler Merritt [00:16:14]:
Like. Like, because I'll put jokes in there that I'm like, no one's gonna think this is funny but me or I think this is absolutely hysterical. And if you're a musical theater person, the book is layered with so much musical theater and musical theater jokes in super niche musical theater commentary. Like, I make a joke in there one time. I make a joke about the musical les mis.
Lindsey Epperly [00:16:41]:
Yes.
Tyler Merritt [00:16:42]:
And at one point, like, it's such a layered and such a very specific joke. Like, and I'm going to explain it because I'm getting to a point here about the book in general. Like, there was a period of time where Les Mis, the musical, which was super popular, it was cast basically with only white people for decades, and then they revived the musical, and for whatever reason, they decided to put, like, mix it up with a bunch of different people. Asian people, black people, Hispanic. Everybody was in it, and it was a weird revival, and it was fantastic. But I just remember that really specifically as a musical theater person. Now, if you know that sheer fact, which is such a niche, weird thing to know. And I take my coffee black, I say a line about Les mis where I say, like, les Mis, where in the revival, they finally let everybody hear the people sing or something like that.
Tyler Merritt [00:17:46]:
It was just the stupidest niche joke. And whenever I get an email or a message from somebody that's like, bro, that Les mis joke was so hysterical, I think to myself, thank God someone let me write a book. But I wrote. I take my coffee black specifically for, believe it or not, and I say this in my dedication. I wrote it for black people. And it just so happens everybody else gets to read it, right? And I say, I wrote it for black people because I wanted to write a book that wasn't just one thing. Oftentimes, black people. Black people are conceived as one thing or one specific way.
Tyler Merritt [00:18:33]:
Like I said, I'm six foot two, black dude with dreadlocks. I live in Nashville, Tennessee, and I drive kind of a fancy car. The amount of times I get out of my car and someone goes, are you a ballplayer? Do you play for the titans? Like, you know, like, without even hesitating, they're like, look, I'm a big black dude who steps out of a fancy car, people automatically go, you must do this. I take my coffee black was my testimony of we as black people can be more than one thing.
Lindsey Epperly [00:19:04]:
Yeah.
Tyler Merritt [00:19:05]:
And when you read, I take my coffee black, you're like, this opens up with this dude talking about Bon Jovi, but also goes into the depths of why his skin color is so important in the relationship with his mother.
Lindsey Epperly [00:19:22]:
Yes.
Tyler Merritt [00:19:23]:
And, you know, I break into giving history on black culture and black things, but not in a way where you're right, where it's not. The reason why it doesn't feel like why it feels safe is because I'm just stating who I am, and in that, who I am, I'm inviting you in to feel it. And I wanted other black people to read it and go, man, that's me too, bro. Like, I love musicals too. And I don't have a community where I feel like I can talk about this, or I love Bon Jovi, too, but I also love Nwa, or bananas are disgusting, because they are, you know? And the reason why you feel safe in this is because I'm opening. And it's not our job as black people to make people feel safe in the world. But I'm choosing to open myself up and say, I want to let you in as close to possible, as close as you can possibly come to me. And the reason why that's important to answer your question, is I can understand why people decide to make their own conclusions as to how somebody is what they are.
Tyler Merritt [00:20:41]:
Because if you don't know, then you don't know. And I take my coffee black. The big moral of the story is, in chapter one, I invite you to take a walk with me and experience a white woman in a truck. And I take you through that experience. And in that, what I do is I kind of hint to you some things about who I am in this very first chapter. And then I spend 17 chapters establishing why I mentioned all those things in the first chapter and who I am. And then in chapter 18, I have you walk with me again with that same experience with that white woman in the truck. But now, because you shared 17 chapters with me, now when you walk with me, you start to realize, lady, you should have jumped out of that car and came and hugged this man.
Lindsey Epperly [00:21:41]:
What?
Tyler Merritt [00:21:41]:
You being afraid of him is ridiculous. Because if you knew how he loved his mom, if you knew the kind of church hurt this guy has gone through and still decided to go forward, if you knew that he is a bag full of failures, but it's those failures that have allowed him to be strong. If you knew all of these things when you looked out your window and saw that black man in a hood, you wouldn't have felt fear first. You would have felt joy in knowing that he's alive, and you got to see him on the street. And that's. That was my desire to go. This is who I am. And now you know.
Tyler Merritt [00:22:25]:
Now you're left with the choice of what you want to do. If you see me on the street.
Lindsey Epperly [00:22:34]:
Thank you for articulating all of that. And your heart behind it, it bleeds through every page of the book, right? Like, you, the vision that you just cast that you wanted that to achieve, I can tell you from my own perspective of, like, coming from a place of trying to educate myself more. And now I see it, too, to your point, like, you wrote this for black people. Like, I see that it is. It's amazing that you're allowing a glimpse into this that could help anyone be able to better understand. And it's so interesting when you talk about the one sidedness of things, right? The automatic assumption that you're someone, I don't know sports well at all. So I'm like someone that plays sports because that's what a friendship is, right? A friendship is a holistic thing. And that's what, when you read this book, you walk away feeling like he.
Lindsey Epperly [00:23:21]:
He could be my friend. Like that. Because I holistically know this human instead of just. Well, we became friends because I really needed to know how his lived experience has been in his skin color. Like that. That's not why we became friends. We became friends because you're a cool dude and people want to know you. I mean, there are just so many layers to it, and I have so many different directions.
Lindsey Epperly [00:23:42]:
I want to take this conversation because you touched on so much here, right? When it comes to even the sports thing, when it comes to pigeonholing. And I want to get into that and the statistics you pulled around that I want to get into the church hurt and the things that listeners can take away because you set a table that is inclusive of everyone. And maybe let's just start there. It actually took me reading your chapter about Stockton, California, and you point out that it's the most diverse place in the US, but it's the least inclusive. And I had never actually thought about those two facts as not being intertwined, especially in corporate speak, where Dei is just a box. You check, and all those words are just combined together. Oh. Just because you're diverse doesn't mean you're equitable.
Lindsey Epperly [00:24:23]:
Doesn't mean you're inclusive. And so you do a beautiful job of setting a stage of inclusivity. And I want to talk about that from just, you know, we have a lot of leaders, a lot of entrepreneurs that are listening say they have a heart for diversifying. How do you actually make sure a place is equitable and a place is inclusive? Like, you've done this within your book and within the Tyler Merritt project. What steps do they take?
Tyler Merritt [00:24:43]:
So this is going to be a hard pill to swallow. And let's, let's deal with this simple fact. I don't know how long your podcasts typically are, but we may have to make this a two parter at some point.
Lindsey Epperly [00:24:57]:
I'd love to come back for part.
Tyler Merritt [00:24:58]:
Two, I was going to say, because we have so many things we're driving. Yeah, but this is a hard pill to swallow. Whether you're working in a Fortune 50, Fortune 500 or you are a business owner yourself, this, you can chalk this up as my opinion, but I would argue to say that there is definitely a science behind what I'm going to say. Diversity, inclusion is trickle down. Meaning if you are in a Fortune 500 company and if you find yourself going, why don't I feel seen here? The first thing that I would say is, I would say is I want you to look up, I want you to look up the ladder. I want you to see who is in leadership in the highest places. Is it only men? If it's only men, it's very likely that you as a woman do not feel seen because when trickle down begins to take place, you're going to feel that in the lower levels, because there is nobody that has a voice in the higher spots. If it's you're a black person, you don't feel seen.
Tyler Merritt [00:26:29]:
If you have six white men running a business, of course you're not going to feel seen because you're not being taken into consideration in this. Or if you are, it's a, it's individuals going, I wonder how these people feel. And you become of these people because there's no one in the room to go, I'm a that person. I'm in the co, in the world of these people. I'm that person. So let me tell you how these people feel, but only if those people are in, are in leadership are you going to begin to feel that as you go down? I spoke, I get hired a lot to speak about a lot of things, but I spoke at a really big company and it was on a Zoom call, it was during the pandemic, and they brought in about 2000 people, all virtually, and I could see a handful of the people, most of the people that I could see were the big leaders and it was mostly white folks. And it's fine. Like, it's fine.
Tyler Merritt [00:27:29]:
But one of the guys came on there and he said, I've been dying to ask you this question, Tyler, and I'm so glad you're here and you've been so funny. You've been entertaining. And he asked me a question that was something to the effect of, like, when it comes to being a black person in a working environment, you can feel the tension as far as, you know, being a woman, being a male. You could. He would. He just asked a general question of, do you find it hard to be different in? Or something like that? And it was a great question. And he was essentially asking it based on, I'm a white male, and I don't think I know the answer to this. What do you think, Tyler? And my response was simply this to him.
Tyler Merritt [00:28:11]:
Now I understand I'm getting paid to give him information. And this was my response. And I know it didn't make him happy initially, is I said, hey, I can see on this call, Mister Wilson, that I can see all the people that are here, and there are a slew of black women on this call that work for you. I was like, I would ask them and just moved on from that question on to the next thing. And when that call was over, my inbox was blown up by all these black women that were like, bro, thank you so much. They're like, we're sitting right here. Like, we're right here. If you want to know.
Tyler Merritt [00:28:53]:
We are right here. And I was, like, thinking, of course he doesn't want to ask you, and respectfully, because you're not in the meetings he's in. This was one of the first opportunities that we all sat in the same room, and I essentially said to him, ask them. And they were so thankful because they were like, bro, we don't feel seen.
Lindsey Epperly [00:29:15]:
Yeah.
Tyler Merritt [00:29:16]:
And I'm like, you don't feel seen because in the hierarchy of the establishment in which you are in, there are no people in power that look like you. That's my argument of we need more black CEO's in my book. But you can feel that we need more black CEO's with, we need more gay CEO's. You know what I mean? We need more trans CEO's. We. We need just more people that represent the world in which we live in. If you are going to really say that your business is diverse and you care about inclusion and you care about equity, again, like I said, that's a hard pill to swallow. That's not an easy answer, but it makes you really go, well, how do we get people in leadership? And I feel that same way about the church.
Lindsey Epperly [00:30:18]:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. I am, first of all, listeners. Tyler and I had a time zone mishap, which means our conversation today is shorter than it would typically be. And I want to cancel my doctor's appointment that I have to get to to sit here with you for the next 5 hours. And I know Sarah would be mad at us for that, so I won't do that to her because there's so many. I mean, please, please, please, can we come back for a part two of this? Because we have to.
Tyler Merritt [00:30:47]:
I'm looking, I was looking at her time going, we have.
Lindsey Epperly [00:30:49]:
This is not time. No, but, you know, everything you just hit on, it's the book, but it's brought to life even more. And it's so important for individuals listening to this who are in leadership roles. It's so important for myself in a leadership role. A lot of our audience comes from the travel industry, where you would think it's the travel industry, it's all about embracing other cultures and it's all about. But the further up in leadership you get, the less that is the fact. And so it was one of the big reasons I wanted to just initiate a conversation with you as to, okay, could we start talking about this in my own industry that I know and love, where we'd love to see this happen, so, listeners, because we are short on time and I am so, so, so remiss about that. You have to go pick up.
Lindsey Epperly [00:31:38]:
I take my coffee black. You have to come back for part two whenever that is. Tyler, if you will definitely are doing.
Tyler Merritt [00:31:43]:
We will get that on the books soon so we can please, because people.
Lindsey Epperly [00:31:47]:
Are going to be like, wait, you're going to end on that note? I mean, I just know. Here's the note we're going to end on. I ask everyone this question because it is a question that we ask around our own dinner table. It's a way that we've cultivated gratitude since our business was absolutely plummeted during the pandemic and not a fun time to have a travel agency. And it is what made you smile today? And my, my four year old has now turned this into what is your happy today? And so it's something I like to ask all of my guests. What made you smile today, Tyler?
Tyler Merritt [00:32:13]:
This is going to sound so generic, but this is something we can lean into when we go into the next segment and meet. Thinking about what made me smile is going to make me cry. And I cried everything. Now, since I've had this weird surgery three years ago, what made me smile today is that I woke up and that I'm still here. And that might sound mystical and weird to the listeners now. But we talked 20 minutes before this started. And you know what I mean by that, which is a great cliffhanger for our next segment. But I, gosh, I woke up and I'm still here.
Tyler Merritt [00:32:59]:
And that made me smile a lot today.
Lindsey Epperly [00:33:05]:
I think that was my smile today, too. Thank you for that. Thank you for being here. Thank you for agreeing to this interview. Okay, listeners, come back for part two. All the show notes will include everything you need to know about Tyler Merritt, where to purchase his book, where to follow along, where you can find your new friend. Our new friend. Thank you.
Tyler Merritt [00:33:25]:
Tune in for part two because it's coming.
Lindsey Epperly [00:33:27]:
It is coming. Thanks, Tyler.