Episode 31 / Shauna Niequist

Oct 30

Shauna Niequist’s Approach to Hospitality Makes Our World a Better Place

This episode is for you if you’ve ever wondered:

Strategies to protect your peace, energy, and family time from negative social media interactions.
The importance of maintaining meaningful relationships and having a support system.
Daily practices for acknowledging pain and gratitude to start and end the day with intention.
The concept of reframing hospitality to foster understanding and connection.
The impact of incorporating playfulness and lightheartedness into serious aspects of life.

“I think we're in a crisis of isolation, and I think one of the ways through it, you could have, like, big, broad scale ideas, but we combat loneliness and isolation, meal by meal, conversation by conversation, walk by walk, phone call by phone call.”

Shauna Niequist

Lindsey Epperly [00:00:02]:
All right, Shawna, we are so excited to have you here today. Thank you for coming on.
Shauna Niequist [00:00:06]:
Oh, thanks for having me. This is fun.
Lindsey Epperly [00:00:08]:
Yeah. Well, as you know, the show is called who made you the boss? And that is very much because for entrepreneurs and for creatives, we are forging a very unique path where we kind of have to reconcile the choice that we made, you know, essentially to go in this unique direction where we're leading ourselves. Oftentimes, someone like yourself, you're putting out a platform. As an author, you were leading other people, and there's never really that one silver bullet moment where we realized, I need to step up as a leader. But I think it comes over time. And I just want to hear a little bit more about your story and how you've gone about pursuing this path, what it's mean to step into that kind of becoming your own bias type of atmosphere and what that's looked like for you.
Shauna Niequist [00:00:48]:
Well, it's such an interesting concept, and I think you're exactly right that we all come to it in different ways and at different times. And I would say overarchingly, I tend not to think of myself as a leader or an entrepreneur. I think of myself as a writer. I'm a storyteller. I'm a words person. I'm a bookworm. And so when I think about, like, in terms of identity and professional identity, I'm a writer. I'm on the creative side of things, and I'm a little bit of a purist.
Shauna Niequist [00:01:20]:
Like, it's like me and my laptop and my jammies. A lot of my writer friends are very, I would say, like, strategic and content based. And this is the message they want to get out in the world, and they use books to do it. And I'm like, give me a library and a blanket, and you'll never hear from me again. But at the same time, I would say one of the surprises of any kind of creative work is you end up having to be a little bit of an entrepreneur and a boss. And I would say the most important thing for me is I've had to learn to make the decisions that feel right to me, even if they don't feel popular or right or normal for other people doing the same thing as me. So giving myself permission to do it my way, as opposed to sort of the accepted way, has probably been the most significant kind of boss or leadership set of choices I've had to figure out.
Lindsey Epperly [00:02:13]:
Yes. Okay, tell me a little bit more about that. What's that look like in giving yourself permission.
Shauna Niequist [00:02:18]:
Well, you know, there have been a handful of opportunities that I've said no to over the years that most of the people around me thought I was crazy. And mostly they were around travel or big tours or. Yeah, kind of bigger, bigger, better, faster. They were the opportunities that you think you want, right? That you're like, if only someone invited me into this. If only someone gave me this opportunity. And then when it actually comes, you realize, this is amazing. It's also at the expense of some other things I really treasure. And so I would say, looking back on it, the worst business or professional decisions I've made are when I said yes to something that wasn't right for me.
Shauna Niequist [00:03:00]:
And the best decisions I've made usually are when I say no to something that seems great but isn't ultimately right for me, for my values, for my family, for my schedule, for my health. And those are hard to figure out, but I'm getting better and better as I get older.
Lindsey Epperly [00:03:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess that's the whole point of. I guess I haven't learned that yet, right. Is the constant ability to give yourself permission and to give yourself grace to almost put on that, those glasses of looking out at the world of. I just don't know what. I don't know. And I'd love to kind of dive into that work a little bit with you today, especially from the context of, well, a couple different directions.
Lindsey Epperly [00:03:36]:
I'm going to take this. I want to talk about hospitality because that is your calling, and that has been my background. And I know a lot of our listeners come from the hospitality industry, but I also want to talk about imposter syndrome, because that comes up very frequently on this podcast. I think it's something that plagues creatives and entrepreneurs as we're putting our work into the world in whatever precious way that might look like. But I feel like the whole concept behind, I guess I haven't learned that yet, is that you can accept and embrace a beginner's mentality. And so I want to talk to you about that, how you came about being able to relish that instead of being afraid of it, because I think for many of us, it shows up in a. In an imposter syndrome kind of way, and we're afraid of the things we haven't learned yet.
Shauna Niequist [00:04:18]:
You know, it came out of this major life change that we made. So, you know, I had been living in my hometown, a lot of history, a lot of roots, a lot of familiarity. I knew how everything worked. I was very much kind of a local and in some ways an expert of that little town and how we all lived. And then I moved to New York City, and I did not know how to do anything, like, basic stuff. Like, we were getting lost on the subway all the time. We could not figure out how to get our laundry done, like really normal stuff in my old life. And so I realized.
Shauna Niequist [00:04:51]:
And then I had this great moment. I went and got my hair done, and I asked. The guy that did my hair for the first time in New York had been here six months, only six months ahead of me, right? And I asked for his advice, like, okay, so you were new in town six months ago. What advice would you give me? And he said, here's the thing. There's a bunch of stuff I didn't do because I didn't want to ask for help. I didn't want to seem dumb. So, like, I didn't know how to take the subway, so I didn't. Or someone invited me to a Broadway show, but it felt, like, sort of complicated and weird, and I wasn't sure I was going to get the tickets right.
Shauna Niequist [00:05:23]:
So I didn't go. And he said, I really regret that I didn't just ask for help and say, like, hey, I don't know how this works. And I really took that to heart. And so I just started asking people, like, anybody. Like, I would be standing next to a parent at pickup line at the elementary school, and they'd be like, hey, how are you? And I'd be like, good. Well, I have you. How do you get your laundry done here? How do you get Broadway show tickets? How do we get our kids into middle school? And what I realized is people love being asked for help. They love when their body of expertise is helpful to someone else.
Shauna Niequist [00:05:59]:
And so I just started every. I asked servers, I asked the guy at the deli, I asked everyone I encountered anywhere. And people were like, oh, you know what? I know something about this. I love sharing my earned experience with someone else and having it be valuable. And so I started thinking, what if I don't always have to know? What if I just always have to ask? And somebody is going to be esteemed and delighted by being asked to share what they've learned. So I just became an asker in every area, certainly around New York, but also, like, with writing stuff, I ask questions all the time of things that I don't know yet, or just this morning I worked with someone, and I was like, hey, here's the thing. I should probably know that I don't and I realized it was really freeing to stop putting pressure on myself to know things and to let other people know things and teach me. That feels like a really life giving way to live.
Lindsey Epperly [00:06:51]:
Yes. Well, I would imagine, too, with you with it resonating, that you are a writer through and through, that there's probably a certain, like, badge of honor that comes with being able to put information out into the world. It's what you're doing. And so the humility that comes with being able to ask for help and accept that and then turn around to your readers and say, I didn't know this either. It's okay. I mean, that had to be freeing as well.
Shauna Niequist [00:07:15]:
Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I'm a writer, but the way that we receive information in the world has changed so much. Like, the information is all available to all of us right now on our phones. People don't need information from me. Right. I don't have to be an expert. What people need is a sense of understanding, a sense of empathy, a sense of connection. I don't think my job is to inform or educate.
Shauna Niequist [00:07:39]:
I think my job is to make people feel less alone, less misunderstood, to feel like their concerns and questions and fears are the same as everyone else's. It's way more about connection than it is about expertise, at least the way I view it.
Lindsey Epperly [00:07:53]:
Yeah, well, I mean, that's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about, is the way that you just shared all of that. When you share it in your book, you put it under the frame of hospitality. And I thought this was such a unique and beautiful way and should be the basic textbook definition of hospitality, but I had never thought of it in the way that you posed it. And actually, I'm going to read, if you don't mind me, reading a couple of sentences from your own writing, because I want the listeners to get this and why this landed with me, who spent a dozen years in the hospitality industry and why it was like, oh, this all makes so much sense as to why our heartbeats are so in line with our, you know, the individuals that we're serving. And for you, you were talking oftentimes about the hospitality of inviting people in, into your home, setting a table. And for me and for my profession, it was always sending people out, out into the world and stewarding those dreams. But there's this common denominator, essentially, of helping another person experience the world in a way that is less isolating and less alone. And so, listeners, I'm just going to read a couple of quick excerpts from I guess I haven't learned that yet because I want us to camp out on this topic, and I want them to understand where I'm coming from and asking all these questions because it's such a beautiful way you've put it.
Lindsey Epperly [00:09:00]:
So Shauna says in her book, hospitality is powerful. It can move us. It can heal us. It can remind us that we are loved and that we matter and that someone cares. We're alive. And then you go on to, say, practice brave, awkward, difficult hospitality as a way of fighting against isolation and othering, a way of healing what's been broken and loving our world and our own selves back to life that is so powerful. And then you really lay it out there in the book that your calling is not to write. Your calling is this hospitality.
Lindsey Epperly [00:09:31]:
So I want to talk about that. How did you come to that conclusion?
Shauna Niequist [00:09:35]:
Well, I mean, you know, I don't know if you're like, I'm generally the last to know these kinds of things. And my husband kind of like, reflected back to me at a certain point. We've been married for 20 something years and maybe, you know, three years ago or something. He said, hey, I have an idea about you. Can I tell you? Sure. He said, I know you're a writer. I know you're a lot of other things, he said, but I think everything you do, including writing, is a function of your deep passion for hospitality. And it was one of those things where as soon as he said it, it resounded with me.
Shauna Niequist [00:10:06]:
I said, I think that's exactly right. I think everything I do, whether it's gathering people in our home or hosting events or writing or speaking, anything like that, for me, it's always about the sense of giving people a place to be when they would otherwise be alone, making them feel understood and seen and nourished. And that idea that I think we live in a, I think the world has always been difficult and lonely, and I think it's especially true right now. I think we're in a crisis of isolation, and I think one of the ways through it, you could have, like, big, broad scale ideas, but we combat loneliness and isolation, meal by meal, conversation by conversation, walk by walk, phone call by phone call. It happens in those individual choices. To be a person who gathers or to be a person who isolates.
Lindsey Epperly [00:10:55]:
Yes. Yeah. What does that look like for you? I know you've been doing some traveling lately. I followed along on your Italy trip. What does it look like for you to take that out into the world instead of just simply inviting people into your home. How do you embody that as you live?
Shauna Niequist [00:11:08]:
Well, I think some of it is I'm always learning. I'm always in like, teach me how mode. So, you know, for example, we, one of the amazing things we got to do on this trip is we got to eat in the homes of several italian families. A cheese maker and a woman who is running an organic olive oil or olive farm, and they're harvesting their own and making their own olive oil. A chef who lives overlooking the sea, and his wife and their little kids. And so I was always watching for how they were doing it. What does it mean to invite people into this space? And what helps us connect to their story, what helps us feel at ease, what pieces of the story are important. And so a lot of it is, I feel like I learned from some real, like, masters that week.
Shauna Niequist [00:11:56]:
And then some of it is there's a part of hospitality, I'm sure you've experienced this. There's a part of hospitality that's learning how to be a good host. There's also part of it that's learning how to be a good guest. I work really hard when I'm in someone else's space to offer them the same attentiveness and gratitude and participation. That really means a lot to me when I'm hosting, but a lot of it is I'm just always taking notes for how a room feels, what people have done to make the room feel that way. You mentioned we were talking about BlackBerry Farm earlier, and I really think they're the masters. I think Brian Lee, the general manager there, has just a specific gift, and every room you walk into, you're going to feel something special there. And it's by design and it's by intention.
Shauna Niequist [00:12:40]:
So I think when you start paying attention to those things, when you're out in the world, you can bring it back to the worlds that you're creating in a really compelling way as well. Yes.
Lindsey Epperly [00:12:48]:
Oh, that's so beautiful. It's really interesting that you think about the art of being a good guest as well, because I do think there's something innately wired in that, that you have to learn to receive, probably, and that oftentimes is not a natural posture for some of us who may be a little bit more headstrong or who like being the host. Like, I've never shied away from hosting, but. But the idea of receiving that kind of love and hospitality has to be a learned art for many people, I'm sure.
Shauna Niequist [00:13:15]:
Well, and I think if you're especially if you're the person that's known for being the host. One thing I found is that sometimes feel, people feel a little nervous when I come over. They, like, apologize a lot. Like, oh, I'm not going to do it like how you do it. And I right away say, oh, no, no, I don't want you to do it how I do it. I really am excited to be in your home and your space, and I ask a lot of questions. Hey, I love this. Where did this recipe come from? Or tell me about the art on your walls, or tell me to just engage in their space and their experience.
Shauna Niequist [00:13:44]:
And I also work really hard to never be like, why don't I take over here? Why don't I arrange this? Absolutely not. Like, I'm here to receive and to engage in and respond to what you've built here. And that's a gift that we give each other when we host and when we gather.
Lindsey Epperly [00:13:59]:
I love that. While this is not a faith based podcast, we, you and I, share the same christian background and christian faith. And I think that you do such a beautiful job in your work of laying out what you believe, why you believe it, but in a way that anyone from any walk of faith or background can read your work and still feel at home. And I. I honestly feel like the way you embody your faith is an extension of hospitality as well. Is that, um, is that something you have, you've been intentional behind?
Shauna Niequist [00:14:24]:
Oh, I mean, that's a huge compliment. Compliment to me. Thank you. What I always think about in terms of writing, especially writing about faith, is I grew up with a group of girlfriends who are still some of my very best friends to this day. And several of them had either no particular religious background or a really different religious background than I did. And also, they were the smartest, kindest, most intellectually rigorous, soulful. I mean, there's just an extraordinary group of women, and I always thought about them, and I thought, I never want to talk down to people who don't have the same experience that I do in terms of my religious background. And I want to esteem their experiences the same way they've done that with me.
Shauna Niequist [00:15:09]:
So I was always writing in the back of my mind to those women who are just like, the coolest, most intelligent, most world changing women I know, even if we didn't share the same particular views on religion. And that really gave me something to hold in my mind that I never like it. I also never like it when there have been a couple times when I've been a part of a religious experience, someone else's faith tradition, and I felt really invited into it. There's also been some times when I've felt conspicuously not invited in, and that's not a great feeling. And so I wanted people to always feel welcome in the language that I was using. You don't have to share my beliefs, but I don't want you to feel like you're standing outside of something. I want you to feel like you can be in this room with us. Even if we're different.
Lindsey Epperly [00:15:56]:
Yes. Okay. That goes back to your whole point of hospitality, is what keeps us from making other people feel othered. Right. It's the inclusion of individuals in our world and in our realm that's interesting about your girlfriends that you write to. I know we talked a little bit earlier about a mutual connection with Bob Goff, and I remember learning from him as he was teaching me the craft of writing, and to think about the person sitting in the other chair. Right. Who is your audience? Who is your one reader that you're writing toward? Do you still write as though you're writing to your best friends?
Shauna Niequist [00:16:24]:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Lindsey Epperly [00:16:26]:
That makes so much sense because it feels like it.
Shauna Niequist [00:16:28]:
Well, and there's also someone told me this a million years ago. I wish I remember who it was. But they said, when you're super stuck as a writer, like, you literally can't think of what to do. Write it like a letter to someone who loves you, dear so and so. Because sometimes, a lot of times when we're stuck, it's because we're stuck in imposter syndrome, ego over editing, self analysis. We're kind of up in our heads. And if you can picture someone who loves you, it sort of unlocks all those things and lets you write from a place of more, like groundedness and settledness and belovedness. And so when I get super stuck, that's one of my tricks, is I picture someone who loves me, and I write whatever I'm trying to write to them.
Lindsey Epperly [00:17:06]:
That is such a good tip. Honestly, Shawna, this is one of the reasons that I love on this podcast. Even though a lot of our audiences is, like, strictly entrepreneurs, it's talking to individuals that sit in various seats, because I feel like everything you just shared is something that when I get creative blocks, even in my business, I could even apply that there. Right? Like, a lot of times, we. We think we know what direction we're going in, or we get a little bit stuck because we're envisioning too much, too big to serving too many people. And I love that advice of writing a letter. Is it to or from someone you love? Like, how do you. Exactly.
Lindsey Epperly [00:17:39]:
You're writing it to them.
Shauna Niequist [00:17:40]:
You picture someone who loves you receiving it, right? So it's like a software. You're not, like, you know, the opposite of that is writing to your critics. Right? Like, I know you already think this. I bet you're gonna slam me online for this. Like, that is the worst place to write, right? Because you're defending your anything that comes out of, like, a self protectiveness or defensiveness when you're already anticipating the criticism that is bad writing. You know, good writing comes from a grounded, settled place. And so picturing someone opening your letter with love and a positive bias toward you helps us to do that kind of good, soft, brave writing.
Lindsey Epperly [00:18:22]:
You have been very intentional talking about this with the inner critics or even the outer critics. I feel like I read something that you put out there where you're very intentional about even the online presence that you curate of. Just like, I don't want the social media trolls or the, I mean, no one wants those things, but I feel like you've done a great job of drawing boundaries around protecting yourself and your time. And that is something I feel like we could all learn from. I'd love to hear a little bit more about as you protect your heart in your work.
Shauna Niequist [00:18:48]:
I went through a thing a couple years ago where anyone who knows me well would know that I almost stopped writing and stopped using social media in any way because it was so. People were so unbelievably cruel, and so I had to find a new way to do it. I either had to find a new job or I had to find a new way to do it. And I had to really navigate some very strict boundaries within myself and my work life. And I had to ask for help, and I had to learn a bunch of new stuff. But it basically came down to, I participate in social media because it's part of my job and I'm really careful with myself about how and when I engage, meaning I don't want to be, like, snuggled up in bed, scrolling through social media, and then find some cruel comment about myself. Nobody else gets cruel comments in bed when they're just in their, like, chill zone. Why am I putting myself in this situation? So I don't check comments until I'm at work, at my desk, I'm in work mode.
Shauna Niequist [00:19:51]:
I don't let that part of my life invade my family life. I engage in it, I read it, but not just like, you can't derail me on a Saturday morning when I'm hanging out with my kids. That's not fair to me. And I don't put myself in that position anymore. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. I also don't spend a lot of time online, and this is a bigger topic, but again, I use it for my work, but I see a lot of real danger in it. I think the lack of accountability, the fact that we don't have a relationship with one another, the fact that things are out of context, I don't think these things bring out the best in how we interact with each other. And so it's a place I spend less and less time.
Shauna Niequist [00:20:35]:
I put a lot more energy into books, a lot more energy into long form writing, a lot more energy into face to face communication. Social media is a tool. It's a tool I use sparingly.
Lindsey Epperly [00:20:46]:
Beautifully said. Yeah. Thank God you continued to write, because I feel like the work you put into the world, for those of us who adore it and follow it and want it and consume it, it's doing so much good in the world. So it's also helpful, though, to hear from someone like yourself, who, from the outside looking in, has published multiple books, has a wonderful platform, has really built a beautiful career as a writer, which is something I admire and I'm working toward myself. But to hear, hey, there was a time where this almost derailed me, but you brought it back, and you brought it back to what matters. That really resonates. Talking about letting the social media in on times that are precious and sacred to you. Right? Like, it's so strange that we just sit in bed and read comments from strangers.
Shauna Niequist [00:21:31]:
And again, what I had to kind of my big aha. Moment was I was allowing. I was doing this. Right.
Lindsey Epperly [00:21:36]:
Yeah.
Shauna Niequist [00:21:37]:
So I think for years, I thought, people should not be so cruel. People should not talk to me like this. Well, that's not in my control. I cannot make people nicer. I cannot. I cannot force them to have the same values about how we use social media as I do. What I can do is protect my own peace, my own energy, my own family time. And I had to get really serious about that.
Shauna Niequist [00:22:02]:
So when I tell you, I don't look at comments ever, in just, like, a random life situation, I look at them two times a day in work mode. I don't reply to direct messages. I don't have time. And what I mean is, I don't want to put time into that. I don't read reviews ever I cannot tell you one Amazon review. Do you know why? Because I can still quote from 2007 when cold tangent cold tangerines came out almost 17 years ago. I can still quote from memory a bad review that I got from lazy daisy 1964. Why do I do, why do we do this to ourselves? People have a right to say whatever they want.
Shauna Niequist [00:22:44]:
We have a right to decide whether or not we're going to let those voices in. So there are, and I'm not at all saying that we don't. None of us deserve criticism or feedback. I welcome criticism and feedback from people I trust with who I'm in relationship. But the average, just like Yahoo doesn't get a voice in my day to day life in the same way that I shouldn't have went into theirs.
Lindsey Epperly [00:23:08]:
Absolutely. Gosh, you're so right. And you don't know until you're in the midst of reading that from lazy Daisy 1959 that it's going to hurt you in that way. And then you can't unsee it and you can't undo it. And gosh, it reminds me, it was just a couple of months ago, I actually think I shared this on a previous season of the podcast that it was like a Saturday morning. I opened up my instagram and I have a young family. I have a one and a four year old and opened up my instagram and saw my first troll about the podcast, right? Like someone just tearing into it and it hit and it landed. And I told my husband about it.
Lindsey Epperly [00:23:42]:
I'm like, oh my gosh, I guess this means I made it. I got a troll. And he was like, wow. Yeah, you know, maybe it dies. And my four year old overheard the conversation. So now there's all these tendrils too, of like the kids are overhearing what we're allowing in. But it then devolved into this very funny conversation of my four year old kind of popping her head up from the couch and saying, mom, you got a troll? Because she's thinking of the movie, right? She's thinking of trolls. And she like, runs over to the kitchen where I'm standing.
Lindsey Epperly [00:24:06]:
You got a troll. Tell me about it. What's your trolley? And her dad goes, when you're old enough and you are doing important enough things, you can have a troll. Like mom, too. And I call that so dear. Kind of like imposter syndrome, right? Like the critics, both inner and outward, come into our lives oftentimes when we are doing the most important work. And then it becomes even more inner work of, well, do I want to keep doing this work, even though it makes me feel vulnerable and exposed and belly up. And so thank you for protecting yourself in a way to where you could continue putting your good and beautiful work into the world.
Lindsey Epperly [00:24:39]:
It means a lot to your fans.
Shauna Niequist [00:24:41]:
Oh, thank you. Thank you for saying that. And I think it's. I think it's easy to think that someone who's been doing it a long time or experienced whatever amount of success doesn't feel that stuff anymore. And it's just not true. I know people who are so just beyond successful. We look up at them and we think, nothing could ever hurt you. Nothing could ever land.
Shauna Niequist [00:25:05]:
There's not a troll or a comment or a mean thing that someone could say on the Internet that could ever shake you because you're, like, here, and it's just not true. Human people are still human people, and we're still afraid of a bunch of things. And even the most successful people I know, actually, frankly, the most successful people I know are the ones who figured out a way to protect their own peace and protect their own energy. That's what keeps them making things, because you can't keep going if you're just totally vulnerable to everybody's Internet opinion of you. The people who are doing great work have figured out a way to protect themselves from it.
Lindsey Epperly [00:25:40]:
That's so well said. And it's helpful to hear that people at that level still get it and still feel it unless they actively work against it. Because I've always felt that way with imposter syndrome, too.
Shauna Niequist [00:25:50]:
Right?
Lindsey Epperly [00:25:50]:
I experienced it when I was a tiny baby travel agent at 19 years old, going, well, someone's going to know that I don't know what I'm talking about. And then I thought, well, but the more I succeed, the less I'll feel that. And it was not the case at all. It was almost like the more you succeed, the more isolating that feels, because success becomes an isolator in itself. And then those voices actually become louder because of it. Well, who are you to lead this company? Or who are you to build what you're dreaming of building? And you're right, you just become more proficient, or else it would completely shut you down.
Shauna Niequist [00:26:22]:
And I think that's where, and I'm sure you've done this, but that's where having long term, really important relationships with other writers is really important to me. Because you're right. Like, there. There are times when. And this is so silly, but I was. I went to my kids several years ago, I went to my kids like an open house in their classroom. And I sat in the classroom, and I, like, no, nobody would talk to me. And I felt, like, really alone.
Shauna Niequist [00:26:47]:
I felt like all the other moms were in another corner, and I felt really, like, awkward about it. Like, is there something going on that I don't know about? And at the end of the class, one of the women said, hey, we just want to let you know that we know you're famous and we don't want to bother you. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? I was having a total 7th grader meltdown inside myself that you guys don't like me, and I need to. This is not how it feels on the inside to be me. Please feel free to bother me because I'm, like, a normal, nice person, you know? But I think it's really important, then, to have people in your life who do understand the weirdness of your job, who do understand that sometimes people. People treat you in a funny way or they bring their own stuff to it, or they have expectations for you that aren't accurate or whatever. So I have, you know, a handful of writer friends on speed dial, and I go like, hey, nobody would talk to me in the fourth grade. Open house.
Shauna Niequist [00:27:40]:
This is so weird. I don't like this part. You know, it's good to have people who understand that part of it with you.
Lindsey Epperly [00:27:46]:
Yes. That's amazing. Well, I know so much of what we're talking about. Like, every listener who identifies as a high achiever, which is pretty much our entire listener base, can relate to and actually something. The real reason, when I first thought to reach out to Chris, our mutual literary agent, to say, please put me in touch with Shawna, I really want to interview her, was because you had released on your sub stack. So, listeners, Shawna's sub stack is called reading and eating, which is, you know, the whole reason we exist on this planet. Such a great title for this episode.
Shauna Niequist [00:28:13]:
My two favorite things.
Lindsey Epperly [00:28:14]:
Two favorite things here, too. So I knew. I'm like, got to talk to her about reading and eating. But you had this one article about do it like it's part of the dance, which is based off of a ram Dass quote. And I loved how you had that because I think short of those listening who actually perform heart surgery, which I don't think we have a lot of those listeners. Most of the time, our career paths are not life or death, but we treat them like they are. I mean, I remember just years and years as a frontline travel advisor. Like someone's dinner reservation for two months from now is going to make me wake up at 02:00 a.m.
Lindsey Epperly [00:28:44]:
To try to sort it out, right? Like there's, everything is life or death. And you had put this in the context of writing that you were, you were treating, I think it was a deadline or something along those lines is like, oh, my goodness, this is going to make or break me. And then applying that Ram Dass quote of, well, what if actually, instead of the things we make really, really hard, we just simply add playfulness into them? And that hit me. Playfulness is actually one of the core values that my husband and I created for our family and for our household. And I wanted to talk to you about how you've been managing to do that, to add playfulness, to add lightheartedness into the things that are serious. You have a serious deadline or you have a serious job. It's a big girl job. We have big girl jobs.
Lindsey Epperly [00:29:21]:
But how do we make these things create some levity so that we actually enjoy them more?
Shauna Niequist [00:29:27]:
Well, that quote has just been like, like one of the biggest kind of aha. Moments of my spring this year. And I have it written like right in front of my desk. And I love it so much because I just have this, like, thing where I will default to doing something the hard way. Even fun, lovely things. I get all like, gotta get it right, gotta get it perfect. Gotta be the first one there. Gotta make it hard and heavy.
Shauna Niequist [00:29:50]:
For some reason, it's so counter to how I want to live. And so I would say a couple things that helped me is my kids really helped me. I am pretty determined when they invite me into play or playfulness or something. Something kid like. I work really hard to say yes right now. So we live in the city and both our kids love to go on walks. And a lot of times I'm like, no, my to do list is a mile and a half long, but I'm really pushing myself to. When my kid wants to go for a walk with me, I drop everything and I say yes.
Shauna Niequist [00:30:26]:
When they want to go for milkshakes, I say yes. When they want to stop at a diner, I say yes. When they want to go to our favorite bookstore, I say yes. And I let them. You know, the other day I was down in our courtyard and I was reading, or maybe I was working. I think I have my laptop because I was bouncing it. And our twelve year old came home from school and he had his football with him. He always carries his football everywhere because he's twelve.
Shauna Niequist [00:30:46]:
And I just stood up in the courtyard and closed my laptop and held my hands like I'm open. And he looked at me like, are you trying to play catch with me right now? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, okay. And we did. And I'm terrible. But it was a moment of playfulness. And I'm just trying to let them lead me in that way. They're also in any part of life.
Shauna Niequist [00:31:10]:
I try to think of a couple mentors, like, not that I talk to them about it, but like I picture a couple people in my mind who seem really good at playfulness. And I kind of do like a what would so and so do so, would so and so be grumbling as they get to get ready for this like fun thing? Or would so and so do it like a dance? So whoever you can hold in your mind as someone who can kind of be a guide for, you know. So you were talking about Bob Gough. For years, Maria Goff has been one of my hospitality mentors. Not that we talk about it all the time, but when I picture gathering people, I picture how would Maria do it? How would she set this table? How would she gather these people? What would she say before everybody comes to the table? Because again, I don't have to tell her about it. I don't even have to ask her. I just sort of channel a little Maria in my mind. And I do the same thing for playfulness.
Shauna Niequist [00:31:58]:
Who are my playfulness mentors?
Lindsey Epperly [00:32:00]:
Oh, that is really good advice. I've had a guest recently, it's actually a good friend of mine, dear Brewstein, who talks about borrowing confidence and the times where you are low on your self esteem is think about what that other person would say about you, what they would, and what a cool way to apply that to every facet of your values. What would a playful person be doing here that I admire totally?
Shauna Niequist [00:32:23]:
And I think that in terms of faith, we talk a lot about drafting faith. Sometimes I don't feel hopeful or faithful for this situation, but so and so does. And so I'm going to draft off their hope and faithfulness. I think it's true for confidence. I think it's true for anything. You can borrow it from the people around you for a little while. I think that's a really, it's kind of why we're here with each other, right? Yes. To carry the things or to have the confidence or the playfulness or the faith or the hope that the other people in our lives feel are sort of at a deficit right now.
Lindsey Epperly [00:32:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like that's one of the things you do very well as a writer, is sharing the way that you, as someone who is kind of also an overachiever, that can be very rigid about things, that you've learned to lighten your grip on it, essentially. And that helps someone like myself, who can very much resonate to. I've never had an easy time with play, and now with two little kiddos, I mean, same thing, right? I'm trying to put myself in a more present mindset to where I can accept that and embrace that. You also, you have a great line about having an extremely low bar for delight, which I think we all could stand to borrow and do, because sometimes it takes just too much to impress us and too much to excite us, and we're looking for, you know, everything to be monumental. And instead, I mean, it goes all the way back to cold tangerines, which I remember reading when it came out in 2007. You know, just appreciate the cold tangerine.
Lindsey Epperly [00:33:45]:
Just take the time and appreciate that sweetness and that delight that we get in our everyday. And that has to make you, I mean, such a more in tune mother and wife and friend when you're doing that and to yourself. So I'm curious, maybe we'll kind of close out on this. Like, say, there is a listener out there who's like, gosh, I do not have a low bar for delight. It is hard to impress me. It is hard to excite me. But I want to search after that. I want to actually start infusing that into my day.
Lindsey Epperly [00:34:13]:
What's one thing they could do to start discovering that again?
Shauna Niequist [00:34:16]:
Well, this is a little more. Some of it is. The first thing that comes to mind is this journaling exercise that I do, and there's one part of it that's about gratitude and delight. But I think the whole thing is really helpful just in terms of getting in touch with really what we want in our lives, also not ignoring what's not working in our lives. So this would be my one piece of advice. Five minutes in the morning, five minutes at night, and in the morning, pain and desire. And in the evening, gratitude and delight. Pain.
Shauna Niequist [00:34:48]:
What hurts, what's not working? Desire. What do I want? Delight and gratitude. What's beautiful. What's good, what's lovely. So the reason I do pain and desire in the morning is because I'm a terrible sleeper and I wake up mad sometimes, like, very in touch with what hurts and what I want. But also, specifically in our culture, we don't do a great job of asking women about pain or desire, right? We ask them about their duties and their responsibilities. We don't always ask them what hurts or what they really want. And so, for any of us, what hurts and what do you want? And then in the evening, what was lovely, what was good, what did you notice? And especially, even if you just decide, if you just said, I'm just going to do that last one, I'm not in it for pain and desire.
Shauna Niequist [00:35:30]:
I'm just going to do the gratitude one. The more you notice. The more you notice. When you start at the end of the day when you have to write three things that you're grateful for or that were lovely or that sparked in you a moment of delight. The first couple times you do it, you'll be like, oh, none. I don't know. There wasn't any. Then the next night, you'll have a couple more.
Shauna Niequist [00:35:50]:
The next night, you'll have a couple more. Then you'll find yourself midday being like, I have one, and it's not even bedtime. Wait, I have three. Wait, I could do this all day. We notice, and then it makes us notice more. And I always say, the first place to start is with your senses. What do you see? What do you hear? What do you taste? What feels lovely on your skin? What song made you want to dance a little bit? Just connecting with your senses and then writing down three things. At the end of the day, you walk through your life differently.
Shauna Niequist [00:36:20]:
All of a sudden, the world is full of, like, textures and sounds and tastes that you might not even have noticed. All of a sudden, you're like, everything smells. I wasn't even noticing smells. But it. It helps you live more in tune with your senses, with then, which then makes you more aware of those kind of low bar delight things. You're not like, well, I didn't see the Eiffel Tower today. Today was garbage. You're like, do you know what rosemary smells like? Are you kidding me? Rosemary's amazing.
Shauna Niequist [00:36:48]:
So getting in touch with your senses is like an easy kind of superhighway into delight.
Lindsey Epperly [00:36:54]:
Okay, so I said I was asking for the listeners out there that wanted to infuse more of this in their lives. I'm really asking for myself. That was everything I needed to hear and more to really, to your point. Now you're focusing on presence and on grounding and on actually being in those moments so that you have something at the end of the day to say. Angelique, I'm so excited for this. I want to continue this conversation for three more hours, especially with the comment about very rarely are women asked about their. Their hurts and their desires. I want to hear everything you have to say about that.
Lindsey Epperly [00:37:22]:
So perhaps we continue this conversation at another time. But I also want to be respectful of your time and to the listeners time. I mean, this has just been such a fabulous conversation. Uh, Shawna, one of the ways I always like to close out the conversations is actually the way. Similar thing, right? Something we practice in my family every day at the dinner table is what is one thing that made you smile today, which my four year old had turned into? What was your happy today? And so I would love to hear what your happy has been today.
Shauna Niequist [00:37:48]:
Well, my happy is still coming later this afternoon, this evening, but I'll tell you, I don't know if you know Jonathan Merritt, but he is also so he is an agent with Chris and also an author and my neighbor and one of our dearest friends. And he has a children's book that came out yesterday. And so tonight we're having, like, a celebration where we live with all of our friends and like an interview and a conversation. But just, you know, when you're a person who makes things, I love cheering on, I would say I take my responsibility as a part of the creative community very seriously. I'm not just a writer. I'm a writer on behalf of other writers, and I'm always cheering on other writers and just other creative people. I know it's hard to make things, and so I want to celebrate people when they do. And I remember the 4 July when Jonathan and I were sitting next to each other at a big cookout.
Shauna Niequist [00:38:43]:
And I remember when he said, I want to write a children's book. And we talked about it and now it exists and we're going to celebrate it tonight. So I'm really proud of him and excited for him and, yeah, just really looking forward to it. We do book launches every so often here in the chapel, and it really means a lot to me to get to be a part of that. To say I don't just celebrate what I make, I celebrate what people make. That's important to me.
Lindsey Epperly [00:39:08]:
That's hospitality. That is wonderful. Okay, well, congratulations to Jonathan. I did see that he published that book. That is so exciting. Shauna, thank you. This conversation has really been life giving, and I know the listeners will feel the same way. So thank you so much for your time on who made you the boss.
Shauna Niequist [00:39:21]:
Oh, it's been my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Lindsey Epperly https://www.lindseyepperly.com

Episode 31 / Shauna Niequist

Shauna Niequist’s Approach to Hospitality Makes Our World a Better Place

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Shauna Niequist

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Episode 32 / Lindsey Epperly

Episode 30 / Shannon Miles