Episode 17 / Amy Shoenthal
How to Stop Negative Self Talk, Fast: Author Amy Shoenthal On Setbacks and Paths Forward
This episode is for you if you’ve ever wondered:
The four stages of The Setback Cycle (establish, embrace, explore, emerge) and how to navigate them.
How to disentangle personal identity from professional setbacks and why doing so is crucial for growth and wellbeing.
The concept of the "motherhood penalty" and its impact on women in the workplace.
Actionable techniques for coping with setbacks, including the "thaw yourself out" exercise.
The strategy of personifying and naming your inner critic to diminish its power and manage its impact on your decisions and self-esteem.
About Amy Shoenthal
Amy Shoenthal is a journalist, marketing consultant and the author of The Setback Cycle, a book about how today’s prominent founders and leaders overcome obstacles to find success. As a contributor to Forbes Women and Harvard Business Review, she shines the spotlight on leaders who have been historically underestimated yet are doing the work to solve society’s biggest problems. Her work has included interviews with a wide range of leaders such as Senator Mazie Hirono, Tory Burch, Marie Kondo, Norma Kamali, and more. Amy also boasts a two-decade marketing career, working with some of the world's largest brands, from Procter & Gamble to Google. Now, through her consulting firm, Visionaries Collective, she works with founders, corporations, nonprofits and small businesses to shape their brand narratives and captivate audiences through strategic storytelling. After completing The Setback Cycle, she began working with organizations to help their employees and managers confidently lead through tumultuous times, offering the tools to help their teams navigate their own inevitable setbacks together. Amy previously wrote a children’s book, A Magical Day in Sunnyside, a tribute to the independent-owned businesses in her own beloved neighborhood of Sunnyside, Queens, where she lives with her husband and five-year-old daughter.
“We all have those moments of self doubt, of unnecessary criticism that comes into our head like, you don't deserve to be here. Who do you think you are? Whatever your version of that is, that is your inner critic....you don't want to silence your inner critic, but if you can name them, you can give them a face and a voice and a personality. It can disarm them.”
Amy Shoenthal
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Lindsey Epperly [00:00:02]:
Amy, I am so excited to actually finally meet you and to get to interview you. So welcome to who made you the boss?
Amy Shoenthal [00:00:09]:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited, too.
Lindsey Epperly [00:00:12]:
I'm going to have to try my best to not totally fangirl out, because, listeners, you need to know that Amy's new book, the Setback cycle, is truly one of the best things I have read in quite some time. Because, Amy, I told you this. It gave me. This is no small feat. It gave me additional words to use to process my own setback, which is saying a lot considering I wrote an entire book myself about my setback. So to actually have that from you was such a gift.
Amy Shoenthal [00:00:38]:
Oh, my God. Those are the words that every writer dreams of hearing because we write so that other people can see themselves in our work, or I think most of us write because of that.
Lindsey Epperly [00:00:50]:
Yes. Well, you accomplish it so beautifully, and we are going to dive really in deep today based on that work. And a lot of the questions I still have from the setback cycle that I've just been noodling on ever since reading it, because it answers so many questions. But then it leaves you and the reader to really think through how they're processing themselves currently and moving forward. But before we dive into the book itself, I always like to kind of start with our guest story and the idea that the show is called who made you the boss? And there's typically a defining moment in every leader or high achiever's life where they have to kind of look themselves in the mirror and say, all right, it's time. I believe I can step into this role and into this power and actually lead my own life and potentially even lead others. And I'm curious. You talk about a position in the book where you were let go from a job and you start making that decision.
Lindsey Epperly [00:01:43]:
Was that your who made you the boss moment, or was there a different one?
Amy Shoenthal [00:01:47]:
I feel like that was a moment, but the moment where I feel like I stepped into more of a leadership role happened a few years earlier when I was removed from accounts that I had brought in and built up when I returned to my job after maternity leave. And that was probably more of my defining moment because I was so excited to return to work. I worked at a marketing agency. I loved it. I was one of those people who had my whole identity wrapped up in my job. And when I came back from eternity leave, I was so excited to dive back in. I wanted everything to be just as it was when I left. And anyone who has gone on any sort of caregiver leave, parental or otherwise, knows that a things are rarely how you left it.
Amy Shoenthal [00:02:41]:
And my leave was only twelve weeks. It was not long at all. But I also think that every caregiver who steps away for a period of time from the workforce to care for a child, a parent, themselves, a relative, their biggest fear is that the job won't be there when they return, or the job will be different when they return. My fear was validated. It was very, very different. When I returned, I had these wonderful people who replaced me, a few people. They had done a great job, and when I came back, they wanted to stay on. And the folks around me said, hey, let's give them this opportunity.
Amy Shoenthal [00:03:20]:
And I was all for that. I said, yeah, let's give them this opportunity. That sounds great, but where did that leave me? No one around me, and I as well, did not consider where that left me. I had worked there for years. I had grown in my role. I had built up a nice book of business, and when I came back from maternity leave, most of that business was taken away from me, and I had been bumped back down the mountain, and I had to do it all again. I had to reprove myself, demonstrate my value, and I did it. I did it.
Amy Shoenthal [00:03:54]:
I spent those next few years after maternity leave creating all kinds of new stuff. And also what happens when you sideline an ambitious woman or a mother, she directs her energy elsewhere. And that's really what sparked my. I always had this freelance writing, I call it a hobby that hummed in the background. And the year my daughter was born happens to be the same year where I started writing more. And my freelance writing hobby took off and became a little more front and center. And I started being invited to do speaking engagements and moderating panels and interviewing really high profile people. One day I'll tell you the story of how I was flown to the Bahamas on stolen crypto money.
Amy Shoenthal [00:04:39]:
That's a wild. Yeah, like, I was. All of a sudden, I was in these rooms that I had never dreamed of being in, all while maintaining that full time job and building myself back up over there. But all of a sudden, the career looked very different, and I stepped into a leadership role that was not sort of in that corporate role, but it encompassed so many other things, including the thing I had been passionate about. Like my hobby kind of took front and center. Then I got the book deal, and, yeah, by the time I was laid off years later, I was just kind of like. I mean, it hurt. It was not fun.
Amy Shoenthal [00:05:18]:
I wasn't thrilled. But I also wasn't decimated. I was okay. My identity was no longer wrapped up in that job alone.
Lindsey Epperly [00:05:28]:
That is really beautiful. I really want to camp out on this idea of identity and how we tie our identity to success. And I also want to come back to the whole idea of the motherhood penalty, too, because you do a really great job of articulating that in the book. So we'll dive into a lot of what you just said as we continue the conversation. But when it comes to the way we link our identity with success, and to your point, you had already done the work around that, so that when that success from the outside perspective of having that specific job was no longer validating, it was not what you needed as your validation. But I thought it was so interesting in the book, there's a quote that you have by Eliza liked, and she talks about last name syndrome and how we so frequently tie ourselves to our careers, to the point where when other people are describing, you and I have this actually with my husband's family. This is so funny. We were friends for years and years, and his family knew me as lindsay the travel agent.
Lindsey Epperly [00:06:27]:
So before we got together, it was, oh, you're going on a date with Lindsay the travel agent you were so defined by. So when I heard that last name syndrome, I was like, I feel seen. But what do we do? How do we even begin to untie our identities from that success? And my other question here is, does it have to be a monumental rug is pulled out from under us moment, or can we start doing that kind of work now, today, without the actual setback as the onus of that?
Amy Shoenthal [00:06:55]:
Well, if you look at my story, I had prepared for that rug being pulled out moment. My setback was very subtle. That maternity leave return and being sort of, like, removed from it wasn't, like, overt pregnancy discrimination or maternity leave discrimination. It wasn't that obvious sort of setback that you hear about so much. It wasn't dramatic. It was slow. It was subtle. Everyone around me wanted the best for me, and everyone was trying their best, and yet decisions were made that impacted my career.
Amy Shoenthal [00:07:29]:
You know what I mean? Like, there's no villain in this story. And I myself didn't quite recognize it as it was happening. It took a lot. It actually took a coworker of mine maybe a year or so after I had returned, and she said to me, hey, I saw what happened to you, and that wasn't cool, and it made me not want to become a mom working on that team. I was like, oh, my God, wow. And I felt responsible. Like, oh, my God, I didn't make it better for the other moms or parents who are going to come after me on this team. That felt horrible, but also validating because it wasn't just me seeing it.
Amy Shoenthal [00:08:06]:
And so, as this was all happening very subtly, and I didn't even realize it myself, I was not really ignoring whatever discomfort or pain I was feeling in the moment. And that might have been why I started seeking inspiration and creative outlets and things maybe validation elsewhere. And so I think you don't need to wait for that rug to be pulled out moment. But if you are starting to sense something, please do not ignore it. And if you are starting to sense something, it also doesn't mean blow up your life. Like, I was never going to quit that job. That would have made no sense. I wouldn't have given up a beautiful, comfortable, regular, steady paycheck because I felt a little discomfort.
Amy Shoenthal [00:08:53]:
You know what I mean? Once I noticed it, and once my coworker said something, I did start to address it with the folks around me, with my manager. It wasn't like a secret. Once I understood it myself, I started raising awareness of the issue so that it wouldn't happen to others. But there are ways where you can go explore your passions and your skills and try things out and just dip a toe into things you might be curious about before you have the rug pulled out from under you moment. You do not need to blow up your life if you are just tiptoeing into a setback.
Lindsey Epperly [00:09:29]:
Right? Well, and let's talk about the actual if we're tiptoeing into a setback, or if we're actually in the midst of a setback, how we know what that looks like. I noted in the book, you mentioned that a sure sign of being in setback is stress. And I was like, oh, God, I felt insane stress for a decade. So how do we differentiate just our run of the mill, our daily stress versus, oh, no, I'm actually in the midst of something that I will one day look at as a setback.
Amy Shoenthal [00:09:58]:
It's very different for each person. But I have an exercise in the book called the alarm clock checklist because so many of us sort of, like, drift into a setback. We float along and we convince everyone around us and ourselves, it's fine, it's fine. Others have it worse. I can keep going. I can handle this. And that might be true. And what else might be true at the same time is you are floating into a setback.
Amy Shoenthal [00:10:24]:
You are gleefully walking into your own setback. And, of course, the earlier you recognize it, the better you will be at working through it and again preventing that rug from being pulled out moment, or at least preparing for it. But I have this thing called the alarm clock checklist, and it's intended to wake you up the way my coworker did when she said, I saw what happened to you, and that wasn't cool. And I was like, oh, my God, there's a lot in it. But two of the questions you can ask, if you're listening to this and you want to know how to wake yourself up, is what are you energized by and what are you disengaged with? Write that down. Write, like, three things about your day that you're energized by and three things that you're disengaged with. Try to do that on a semi regular basis. Do it for, like, a month, and then really see if there are things you can do to recalibrate your day, your week, your month, your life, your job, whatever it is, to do more of the things you're energized by and less of what you are disengaged with.
Amy Shoenthal [00:11:29]:
That can be a really nice sort of, like, clue into what you're feeling, what you're experiencing, and a nice way to start to tiptoe your way out of it.
Lindsey Epperly [00:11:37]:
Yeah, well, and you actually talk about the cycle itself, and I want to dive into that, too, to really give people the framework for if you do recognize you're in it, perhaps you're at this stage and what this looks like to eventually emerge. But first, let's talk about the fact that you have a section in there that talks about the neuroscience of setbacks, that actually, and I am not the person to be talking about science, but let's just see here. Essentially, our brains gain new data through a setback, and once we encounter one, we advance. So you liken it to pulling back a slingshot, right. It has to be pulled back in order to be propelled forward. And that blew my mind because it makes so much sense that the setback is actually breaking the routine and teaching us new behaviors and patterns. But typically, that setback is not a U shape. It's much more complex.
Lindsey Epperly [00:12:25]:
So tell us about the actual stages in a setback, the cycle itself. What does that look like?
Amy Shoenthal [00:12:31]:
So there's four stages of the setback cycle. And I think what we were just sort of touching on is the fact that you don't always recognize when you are entering into a setback. And that is why phase one is establish, because it actually takes a lot, sometimes for the more subtle ones to recognize that you're in one. And even for the bigger ones, our society, our culture, has been conditioned to ignore negative feelings, to ignore failure, to sort of like, push through discomfort and bury it. And so all of those things are going to get us into a place where we pretend our setback isn't happening. I was certainly guilty of that. Even though I have all these tools and I am aware of this, I am still guilty of that. I still find myself doing that because it's instinct.
Amy Shoenthal [00:13:17]:
And that's why phase one is establish. Establishing you're in a setback is like, name it to tame it. And frankly, a lot of us, we don't recognize we're in phase one when we're in phase one, we don't recognize it until we're in, like, phase three. And that's fine. You can still work through the cycle if you realize you're three quarters of the way through it.
Lindsey Epperly [00:13:35]:
This is what I was hoping. I was hoping you would tell me the hack to being able to figure it out earlier next time.
Amy Shoenthal [00:13:41]:
Well, yeah, I mean, that's the point of reading the book. So even if you're in a set, if you're not in a setback and you read the book, at least you'll be prepared to work through your next inevitable setback, whether it's a huge one, life changing one, or one of the many daily micro setbacks that we have. And so it's just a lot of people who are reading this or even hearing me talk about it are just understanding their own life experiences through an entirely new lens. And that's the point of the book. And so, yes, phase one is established. It's awesome if you can recognize it when you're there. And even if you don't, you can still keep going through the cycle once you recognize that you're in it. The second phase is embrace.
Amy Shoenthal [00:14:20]:
This is when we have to do all the sort of data collection. You got to feel your feelings, you have to embrace the discomfort, and you have to try to make connections and understand why this particular setback is impacting you so much. Is it bringing up something else that happened in your past? Like, do you have a self consciousness or self doubt that comes up when some core value of yours is challenged? So this is like the data collection phase, where you just have to sit and think and digest and evaluate, because then once you're done with that, you get to my favorite phase, which is explore. Phase three is explore. And this is the let's just test stuff out. We have the information, we understand what happened, we understand why it impacted us, and now we have the tools to move forward. But let's not commit to the path forward yet. Let's just, again, like we were talking about earlier, dip a toe into things that might interest us.
Amy Shoenthal [00:15:15]:
Let's decide what we're really curious about. When people get laid off from their job, some of the common advice is like, go take a pottery class and go learn how to play an instrument. And that's all fine, if that makes you happy, you do you. But what else are you curious about? If you worked at a place where you managed a team, did you love that? Did you hate it? Do you want to go be a team player, a manager? Do you want to go somewhere and be an independent contributor? Think about all these things instead of just rinse, repeat and getting the same exact job. But, oh, I took a pottery class, so it's okay, really go out and explore the things that you might want to try and see what opportunities are out there. And then you get to phase four, which is wonderful because you come out of your setback and that's the emerge phase. And there are still some tricky things that happen in emerge, but this is when you have your Phoenix moment, your eyes from the ashes, and everything's okay and you never experience a setback ever again.
Lindsey Epperly [00:16:17]:
I love that. Well, and it's so interesting to apply it both to you even said, like micro setbacks that occur daily. But then there are the big, obvious, growly, hairy ones that just derail your entire life. And it's interesting when you talk about how the reader can see themselves in individual stories. It was Amy Nelson's journey that you articulated that really got me, because there is a line in it where she talked about the North Star that guided all of their decisions was the survival of their family. And sometimes we are in setbacks like that, right? That are so monumental. I felt it to my core because my 24 months of setback included the loss of the business income and the loss of my home and a medical emergency. And just one thing after another after another.
Lindsey Epperly [00:17:02]:
Where you're going, this is not just simply a setback, this is a series of setbacks. And how are we ever going to get to that emerge phase, right? Like, you can even look around and identify it, but you're almost without words and without help when it comes to how do we get from here to there when it feels so monumental and so for listeners who maybe are in something like that, right, like there is just this sense of despondency, where do we tie hope? How do we find that thread during that type of season?
Amy Shoenthal [00:17:33]:
When you get to the explore phase, and even once you go through. Sorry, embrace, when you go through embrace and you sort of get this information, you're going to have a lot of aha. Moments. You're going to get a lot of clarity, even in the thick of the bad part. And then, yes, you get into the let's explore our opportunities. Let's go to our community. Let's see what they say about it. A lot of times, if you can't see the path forward, someone in your orbit can.
Amy Shoenthal [00:18:00]:
They tend to see you in such a more positive light than you see yourself. And so if you're struggling with self doubt in any way, or you need someone to tell you what your superpowers are, go to a friend, go to your best friend, go to a sibling, go to someone who, you know, sees you in a way that you don't necessarily see yourself, that is a really great way to sort of inspire hope and promise. And by the time you get to explore and even emerge, you are going to be armed with the tools to understand what your path forward can look like. You're going to get that clarity, and you might be surprised by how much you are capable of, by all the possibilities that are around you. And you're also going to start to hold yourself to a higher standard, because when one path goes away, like I have Amanda Gats, she is one of the founders in the book whose story I go through, and she told me, when the walls crash down, right, you're holding up a heavy wall in your setback. And when that wall finally crashes down, it's not fun. But when you look around, the whole room opens up, and that just gives you a sense of the endless possibilities that are available to you if you choose to see them. Yeah, there's a lot of hope.
Amy Shoenthal [00:19:19]:
It is an optimistic book. It is called the setback cycle. But the orange circles on the COVID are intentional because it shows the radiating light that happens when you emerge from a setback.
Lindsey Epperly [00:19:31]:
Yeah, well. And you do it without leaning into toxic positivity, it feels very intentionally done to where it's, let's assess, let's collect the data, let's take this information without just blindly smiling our way through it and saying, we're fine, which is kind of what we're often inclined to do. Right. And you talk about some of the resources that you can use during that time. I particularly liked your thaw yourself out exercise for when individual is stuck. And I was just curious, how did you come up with these exercises? Like something like that? Where did that even come from?
Amy Shoenthal [00:20:05]:
I interviewed a lot of experts, psychologists, neuroscientists, executive coaches. And a lot of those exercises were really co created with them. Or maybe I collected a few of the tools that they shared in their interviews, and then I would share that there are some exercises that I did not make up, and so I'll properly attribute them to the folks who shared them with me. But saw yourself out was just part of if you're familiar with how our bodies process the stress response, we always know about the fight or flight. We fight or flight when there's a big stressor happening, when there's a lion chasing us, or our bodies are processing an experience as though there is a lion chasing us. And that's the primal stress response. Now, what most people don't realize is that there is a third option. It's not just fight or flight.
Amy Shoenthal [00:20:57]:
It is fight, flight, or freeze. A lot of us just freeze. So I talk about that a little bit in the book and what happens in a freeze, which I think happens to so many of us when we experience a setback, because we just don't know how to move forward. We don't know whether to fight or flight. And I want people to understand how to move forward from the freeze, and there's lots of tools that can help you do that. And so I kind of collected a few things into if you are frozen, here's how to thaw yourself out. Because the worst thing we could do is embrace is all about data collection and understanding why an experience made us feel a certain way and impacted us in a certain way. But that can easily turn into rumination or obsession, and we don't want that.
Amy Shoenthal [00:21:43]:
If you really feel like you are in that freeze and you cannot get out of the rumination or obsession, you really need to speak to a mental health professional. And there are so many resources. There's like hotline now. It's good to collect the information, but not at your own detriment. You have to climb out of it eventually. And so that's why we have the thaw yourself out exercise.
Lindsey Epperly [00:22:04]:
Yeah, I really appreciated the actionable tips that are in laced throughout the entire book when you're in those times as well. And you touched on this a little bit a couple questions ago. Essentially, when it comes to the insecurities that we start facing and that when you source your network outside of you, they can oftentimes help you because they see yourself in a more positive light. But I also like that you talk about how we can develop our own self confidence. On the anti side of that is how we address the little gremlins in our head. And we talk all the time on this show about imposter syndrome because I think that is a real experience for so many high achievers, regardless of what stage you're in, if you're in a setback or not. Oftentimes we have that question of, like, why me? And so let's talk about Raz for a second. Right? Mama, you actually name.
Amy Shoenthal [00:22:57]:
She's here. She's always with those. For the uninitiated, Mamarazzi is the name of my own inner critic. I call her Raz for short. I am from Long island and I don't know why. I just get this visual of. So let me back up. The reason we visualize and we name and we give a whole Persona and visual to our inner critic is because that helps us disarm it.
Amy Shoenthal [00:23:25]:
We all have those moments of self doubt, of unnecessary criticism that comes into our head like, you don't deserve to be here. Who do you think you are? Publishing a book, being on a podcast? Whatever your version of that is, that is your inner critic. And again, back to not ignoring the discomfort. You don't want to silence your inner critic, but if you can name them, you can give them a face and a voice and a personality. It can disarm them so it can make you say, okay, all right, mama Rozzi. I named her Roz for short. Roz is coming up over here. I hear what she has to say.
Amy Shoenthal [00:24:00]:
I don't think I agree with her. And I'm just going to let her do her thing while I press on in the thing that she doesn't think I deserve to do. So my inner critic is the epitome of all my friends, parents from growing up. And so, I don't know, I feel I was always getting in trouble. Like, get back in the house. Go in the backyard. And so mom Marazi, she's like standing on her front porch smoking a cigarette, saying, like, get in that backyard. Who do you think you are? Get out of here.
Amy Shoenthal [00:24:30]:
Get back here. She's always telling what I said.
Lindsey Epperly [00:24:34]:
I do feel that there's a level of shame that kind of comes up there, too.
Amy Shoenthal [00:24:38]:
Yeah, but the whole point is I can picture her in my head and what she looks like. And so you have to name your inner critic, give her a Persona. And again, it could be a neighbor like mine. It could be a relative or someone I know. One of the women I interviewed for the book, she says whenever her anxiety sort of manifests as perfectionism, which is something, again, that high achievers tend to do, she always says when she sees herself in a spiral of perfectionism, she goes, hi, mom. So naming the inner critic really helps to disarm it. Another thing I like to do is name your inner hype person, right? You know that saying, talk to yourself like you would your best friend. That is real.
Amy Shoenthal [00:25:24]:
That is real. You name your inner hype woman. And my inner hype woman, her name is Rhoda. She is modeled after Mary Tyler Moore's best friend, Rhoda Morgenstern, who always had this very cool headscarf. She's like very fashionable 70s pop culture icon. And she was like such a hype woman to Mary Tyler Moore, who was the main character of that show. And so rota combats roz all the my. That's my inner dialogue.
Lindsey Epperly [00:25:49]:
I love it. You're so honest about them, and I think it gives everyone permission to do the same. I've never thought about doing it before, and I still haven't named them, but I'm going to send you an email when I do because I think that they need to be named.
Amy Shoenthal [00:26:01]:
Please, everyone, send me an email with your inner critic and detailed descriptions of their Persona and what it means to you and why you have come up with this Persona.
Lindsey Epperly [00:26:10]:
I can see the neighbor's mothers like.
Amy Shoenthal [00:26:14]:
What you have described as everyone can, even if you have never been to Long island, you just get it when I start.
Lindsey Epperly [00:26:21]:
Well, and another way we can kind of combat these insecurities and these little. The perfectionism and the gremlins that come up for all high achievers, right, is to retrain our brain from a fixed mindset. And you talk about this a little bit in the book, too, that essentially, even though we have these setbacks, this is not what defines us. But why is that so hard? Why is it so hard for us to give ourselves grace and to finally admit, oh, I'm actually not infallible.
Amy Shoenthal [00:26:52]:
I think that we are our own harshest critics. We are harder generally, and again, this goes for probably more of the high achiever crowd. We are harder on ourself than everyone else's, and we tend to get stuck in spirals of shame and embarrassment. I mean, why do you think you're laying awake at night, running through encounters you had with someone in middle school and going through what you would have done differently. I do this all the time. All the time. Like, oh, I wish I had said that. I wish I had done that.
Amy Shoenthal [00:27:27]:
And then you just feel this shame. And so when it comes to maybe, like, a professional blunder, I'm not going to say failure, but, like, a professional blunder, it's just the stakes are higher. So it's really hard to give yourself grace. If you have messed up something in a meeting or you made a mistake on a memo you turned in, or your boss was disappointed in you and you're up for a promotion. Right, that's a setback. It's a setback. It's a reversal in progress. And it is really hard, again, when you're working towards something and you're moving forward or you feel like you're moving forward to then be bumped backwards.
Amy Shoenthal [00:28:03]:
I mean, it's a shot to the ego. It's a shot to the identity. It makes you rethink everything. And in that moment, again, a setback doesn't define you or your identity, but a setback is a defining moment because it challenges all of those things. And so you can let it define you, or you can just acknowledge that it is a defining moment and you have the tools now to work your way out of.
Lindsey Epperly [00:28:26]:
Yes. Yeah. Well. And to combat that fixed mindset, this idea that every setback is a learning opportunity as well. And that's your whole point with emerge, is that you get to come out of this glorious in ways that you never thought that you would have been. And you actually have a great quote from Norma Kamali. I'm going to read it because I want the listener to.
Amy Shoenthal [00:28:44]:
So good. I know exactly what you're going to.
Lindsey Epperly [00:28:46]:
Good. There's always that one thing that happens that's so horrific that you thank your lucky stars that happened, because you'll make the right move. That was such a mic drop.
Amy Shoenthal [00:28:59]:
Yeah. And it's often in that moment where you feel like, oh, no, the world has crashed down, but also the whole room opens up and you have the clarity you needed because it's not a nebulous decision anymore. It's like, okay, that path is gone. Let's go find something else. And often that something else ends up being better than the original plan.
Lindsey Epperly [00:29:22]:
Yes, it totally does. And you feature leaders who all have just beautiful stories of that on every scale of grandeur that has happened to them. I'm so curious, actually, because each one kind of just nailed it in each chapter. Right? Like, this is exactly the lesson we need to learn here. This is where I see myself in their story and their journey. How did you pick the people that you chose to interview who made the book?
Amy Shoenthal [00:29:46]:
Oh, my God, that was the hardest decision ever. I had so many great stories, and I ended up removing a few. There was also one story that I wrote as part of one of the chapters, and I loved it. And when I sent it to the person, they ended up being uncomfortable. And then I had to take it out because I sent every story to every person who I wrote about to make sure that they felt good. It's a book like it's printed. It's not like an article where you can go, like, fix a typo or fix a misattribution in some way. So I wanted to make sure that everyone whose stories I went into, because these are not just, like, mentions, I go into their really personal, often negative experiences.
Amy Shoenthal [00:30:28]:
And so I wanted to make sure everyone was super comfortable with it. And so a lot of these stories were born of many interviews and some back and forth to make sure I was honoring their story in a way that they were happy with, because, again, it's so personal to all of us. And so I wanted to make sure everyone was comfortable. And so how I picked the stories, I wanted to make sure there was, like, a diversity of people, of gender, of races, of ethnicity, of industry. A lot of the stories, as you saw, were from the pandemic, because I wrote this book in 2021 and 2022. Really? And so a lot of the setbacks happened because of the pandemic. Like, I have restaurants and bar owners and people who moved back in with their parents, adults who moved back in with their parents, and that was a lot of it. But I wanted to make sure not every story hinged on the pandemic.
Amy Shoenthal [00:31:24]:
And, yeah, I don't know. There's no one factor that weighed my decision of who to include and who not to include. I wanted to make sure I could illustrate all four phases of the setback cycle and everyone's stories. And I also wanted to make sure I had a couple of stories where people aren't fully out of their setbacks yet. And so that was an intentional decision as well.
Lindsey Epperly [00:31:45]:
Oh, I love that because I did notice that on a couple that it's almost, there's a question mark on how does this end, although you do feel hopeful that they've reached a certain stage of emerging from it, and that's the.
Amy Shoenthal [00:31:55]:
Point in it, because, like I said, you're going to read this book and you're going to see yourself in it. And even in the stories you don't see yourself in, you're going to be inspired by them. And I didn't want every story to sort of be tied up in a neat little bow. And so you have some of the stories where I'm like, they emerged from this setback, and there was this happy ending, but that's not the end of their story. And so I go on to just the continuous challenges that business owners and leaders face, because, like you said, the setback cycle is not a perfect circle. It is a squiggly s curve where every phase is different and every phase looks like a different shape and takes a different amount of time to work through and feels different. And so we encounter many setbacks throughout the course of our lives. But like you said, back to the neuroscience.
Amy Shoenthal [00:32:43]:
The neuroscientist I spoke to said that she was able to prove in her lab that people who have gone through setbacks are better equipped for learning and problem solving and reasoning because they've been through it before, so they can get through it again.
Lindsey Epperly [00:32:58]:
Yeah, it builds that resiliency.
Amy Shoenthal [00:33:00]:
Exactly.
Lindsey Epperly [00:33:01]:
Do you foresee yourself, by the time this interview launches, the book will be out? But we're just a couple of weeks out from the actual book launch. Do you foresee that you will become essentially a walking deer? Abbey, now that everyone wants to tell you their setback story, like, I also felt like I need to just tell you everything as soon as I read it. Has that already started happening?
Amy Shoenthal [00:33:20]:
I have been like that since before I wrote the book. People come to me for advice and career advice and mentorship and counseling, and I am not a professional coach or counselor in any way, but people definitely come to me to bounce ideas off of. And now I'm like an encyclopedia of information because I spent the last three years doing all this research. But, yes, that is happening. Yes, I foresee it happening more in the future. But none of this is new to me. This has always been who I am and the role that I play in my friends lives. And I am happy to continue doing that if there is a chance I can help people get through something difficult.
Amy Shoenthal [00:34:00]:
I know that my community showed up for me when I was going through. When I got laid off. Oh, my. Like, everyone showed up for me. I had, like, a full client roster within two months of being laid off because everyone just showed up for me and sharing. Oh, like, Amy's available to work with, and that was amazing. Right now I have this book coming out and know asked for help again. Can you put me in your know, can I come on your podcast? And people were showing up in major ways.
Amy Shoenthal [00:34:26]:
So if I can repay that, I am more than happy to.
Lindsey Epperly [00:34:31]:
What a really beautiful way of using one of your gifts. That is probably something that might have been overlooked for years and years, right? That's a superpower that you have the ability to be that sounding word for others and to even be able to trace this back to the first few months of having to untie your identity with success and what you traditionally defined as success, all because of the motherhood penalty. I mean, it really is so interesting to think about that setback and how you have managed to emerge from this. So thank you for sharing your story about all of that.
Amy Shoenthal [00:35:02]:
Of course, so many of us experience this, and I think if you read someone's story who is going through the same thing as you or something similar, A, you'll know you're not alone, and b, you might see a path forward that you might not have otherwise seen. And that's what this book is doing for people and I hope continues to do for people.
Lindsey Epperly [00:35:22]:
I definitely think it will. Again, I'm a big fan having read it. It was a beautifully done piece of work, and I think it's important for all high achievers, all individuals, whether you've gone through something recently or you're currently going through something, there is language and tools that you provide that help everyone. I always like to kind of wrap up the show with my guests to find out one thing that made you smile today. This is something we ask around our dinner table. You can use the past 24 hours. We're a little bit early in the day, but yes, it's something we ask about in our dinner table with my three year old, Mila. She's always asking, what is your happy? What is one thing that made you smile today? Amy?
Amy Shoenthal [00:35:59]:
Oh, my God. I had so many things. I feel like this interview made me smile. But does everyone say that? Should I say something? No, actually, I appreciate maybe one or.
Lindsey Epperly [00:36:08]:
Two other people have said it.
Amy Shoenthal [00:36:10]:
I feel like I've been smiling a lot during this interview because you're a person. Again, the book hasn't come out yet, so only a few people have read it so far. And to hear your take on it and what it meant to you and the impact that it already had on your life, the book is doing what it's supposed to do, and hearing you validate that is just, again, I said this at the very beginning. It is the most rewarding thing for a writer. The reason I wrote this book is so that you can understand your life experiences in a new lens and have the tools to work through the inevitable setbacks that you will encounter. And that, I think, has happened for you. And so hearing that has not only made me smile, but just really validated my overall, my north star. The reason that I do this is so that it can have the impact on folks like you and people who are listening.
Lindsey Epperly [00:37:03]:
I am so confident it's going to keep doing that. For those listening, what is next for Amy? What can they be doing to support you? What do we need to look out for? And how do we follow along as well?
Amy Shoenthal [00:37:15]:
I'm on Instagram. Yes. Lots of questions, lots of answers. I'm on Instagram at Amy show. A M Y S h o. I have a book tour. Lots of events going on. I don't know what will be by the time this podcast comes out, but everything is listed on my website, which is thesetbackcycle.com.
Amy Shoenthal [00:37:36]:
And so if you want to know where I'll be, how to connect with me, that's really your best way of doing so.
Lindsey Epperly [00:37:43]:
Subscribe to your great newsletter. You've got Amy's antidote.
Amy Shoenthal [00:37:46]:
I do have a newsletter, yeah, all of that. If you go to the bottom of the stepbackcycle.com, it's like you can reach out to me, you can subscribe to the newsletter, and you'll see the list of events and where I'll be showing up, hopefully in your town, in your city. And I'm doing a lot of corporate speaking engagements. If you have a company and you bring speakers in to help leaders navigate tumultuous times and teams work through setbacks, that's something else I'm doing quite a bit this spring.
Lindsey Epperly [00:38:14]:
Well, thank you so much for adding so much value to our listeners who are leaders that are often in this situation where they are navigating those tumultuous times, you have really poured a lot into the conversation today, and we are so, so thankful for your time. On who made you the boss.
Amy Shoenthal [00:38:27]:
Thank you so much. I'm thankful for you as well. Bye.