Episode 26 / Cait Donovan
How Not To Let Burnout Take You Down: Cait Donovan’s Practical Advice for Managing Burnout at Work and Home
This episode is for you if you’ve ever wondered:
The crucial difference between imposter syndrome and growing into a new role.
How to navigate and recover from burnout, including recognizing its symptoms and adopting life-pruning practices.
The importance of setting both internal and external boundaries to protect your time, energy, and values.
Practical advice for overcoming people-pleasing tendencies and reducing anxiety by making conscious decisions and creating exit strategies.
About Cait
Cait Donovan is an International Keynote Speaker, host of “Fried – The Burnout Podcast,” author of the book "The Bouncebackability Factor", and an acupuncturist with a master’s degree in Chinese medicine. Her creative burnout recovery solutions have been featured on podcasts and online magazines such as “Forbes”, “NPR,” and “The New York Post” and in companies such as The New York Public Library and PepsiCo.
“When you are burnt out, the worst advice you could possibly accept from anyone is do a gratitude journal.”
Cait Donovan
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Lindsey Epperly [00:00:02]:
All right, listeners, I am very, very excited to welcome my new friend, Kate Donovan, because I have long been a fan of Kate's work with Fried the Burnout podcast. Kate, thank you for coming on today.
Cait Donovan [00:00:13]:
Thank you for having me. And thank you for saying that. It always baffles me, even though I know it's a. I know it's a good podcast and I know people listen to it because I see the numbers, but it always is still a surprise and lovely to hear.
Lindsey Epperly [00:00:28]:
Yeah, well, it's amazing because you've managed to kind of what we were talking about before recording, you've managed to turn a tough subject, one that you have first hand experience with, or else you wouldn't have the same passion. And you've. You've used that as rocket fuel to help others. And it's clear that you love what you do and being able to talk about burnout.
Cait Donovan [00:00:46]:
I do love what I do, and I think that burnout can be. And people who are burnt out right now are like, I hate you, but I do think that burnout can be the best thing that happens.
Lindsey Epperly [00:00:59]:
Yeah, I actually agree with that. And I. I'm not going to take us there yet. I'm going to. I'm going to circle back around in the conversation and camp out there because I really want to go in deep with that conversation. I think it is a really important moment in our lives that we can use to our advantage. But I want to talk a little bit about you and how you got here. Right? How you're talking about Bernard on a regular basis.
Lindsey Epperly [00:01:20]:
The name of this podcast is who made you the boss? And the joke is that for the entrepreneurial set, we made ourselves the boss, right? We have to, like, look in the mirror and deal with that every day that I made this crazy decision, and now I've got to live with it and all of the fun things that come along with it. But I am just so curious, especially for you, coming from a season of burnout, coming, you know, from a totally different background. At what point did you give yourself permission to kind of step into that leadership and step into that ability? Like, how did you go about that? What did that look like for you?
Cait Donovan [00:01:51]:
When I went through my burnout recovery process and I had support, I'm not one of those people that's like, I did it by myself, and now I'm helping you do it faster. No, I did not do it by myself, and I don't recommend that you do either. It's not a do it. I am a DIY to death kind of gal. This is not the DIY scenario. I had all the support in the world, and I was going through my burnout recovery at the time. I was an acupuncturist. And so I'm seeing 40 to 60 patients a week, and I find myself dropping the same tidbits of information in, like, 38 of my 40 appointments or 57 of my 60 appointments.
Cait Donovan [00:02:27]:
And I'm thinking, like, probably should say this once, where all these people can hear it at the same time.
Lindsey Epperly [00:02:36]:
Yeah, because this is the podcast.
Cait Donovan [00:02:39]:
Partially, yeah. And so I was sort of. I started, my husband made a really great recommendation that I totally ignored and should not have. And he said, because I said this to him, I said, you know, I just keep saying the same things to people all day, every day. And he said, well, why don't you write those core things down so that you have them? And I was like, that is super smart. Probably won't do that, but a really good idea for anyone out there that's good at keeping track of notes. I'm like the girl that writes 87 post its and then gets overwhelmed by the fact that I have so many post its and then throws them all away.
Lindsey Epperly [00:03:10]:
You're speaking my love language. Yeah, I can't.
Cait Donovan [00:03:14]:
Like, not going to happen. I will buy a special notebook for this purpose, and then I'll write grocery lists in it, and I will forget what it was for. It's just not going to happen. So I didn't do that, but I was going through my recovery process. One of the things that I noticed, which you just touched upon in a different way because of your podcast, is that the information at the time that was available in 2016 was for doctors, nurses, and corporate workers. I was none of the above.
Lindsey Epperly [00:03:42]:
Mm hmm.
Cait Donovan [00:03:43]:
So all of these things that you are saying in this research cause burnout, they don't apply to my life. So if these things don't apply to my life, then what does? And how did I get here? I'm a stress management expert. I'm a health expert. I've meditated since I was 18. I'm an athlete. Like, I eat vegetables every day. I haven't had Coca Cola since, you know, whatever, 1997. Like, that's totally a lie, but you know what I mean.
Lindsey Epperly [00:04:14]:
Yeah, totally. So why am I burned out?
Cait Donovan [00:04:16]:
What the hell?
Lindsey Epperly [00:04:17]:
I'm doing all the right things.
Cait Donovan [00:04:19]:
Like, what the hell? So I. In that process, when I started to uncover things, what I felt internally was not that I needed to step into a leadership role. What I felt internally was people are hurting all around the world because they don't have access to information that's actually going to help them. And they don't have access to information that's going to help them. Partially because some of the research has not been done yet and partially because no one's saying it.
Lindsey Epperly [00:04:47]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:04:48]:
There's people that do research. Right. I love them. Thank you for doing research again, I'm not organized enough to do your data sheets, statistics, and I got an a in the class, but I hate it with every ounce of my being. And so people who do research are not always the same people who should promote and talk about that same research. Some of them totally have both skills.
Lindsey Epperly [00:05:15]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:05:16]:
A lot of them don't. So I am the person who digs through academia and brings you the information that's actually going to make a difference to your recovery.
Lindsey Epperly [00:05:29]:
Right. So you're the vessel.
Cait Donovan [00:05:31]:
Yeah. So to me, it wasn't a leadership role, it was a calling.
Lindsey Epperly [00:05:36]:
Totally. Did you struggle, we talk a lot about imposter syndrome on this show. Did you struggle with imposter syndrome going through this of like, well, I'm not one of those medical professionals or who am I to be?
Cait Donovan [00:05:46]:
Well, I am a medical professional.
Lindsey Epperly [00:05:48]:
That's true. Your acupuncturist background. You are the right person. Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:05:51]:
So. So for me, I had done an apprenticeship and life coaching in 2009. I have a master's degree in chinese medicine. I did another degree in bio behavioral health after I moved back to the state. So I've. I've got another degree that's basically based on how stress affects the body. In addition, I have all this life experience and cultural experience because I've lived in four countries and speak multiple languages. So I had a moment where I was like, I don't have a life coaching certificate because I did an apprenticeship and I have.
Cait Donovan [00:06:21]:
Am I. I've never worked in corporate, so can I help these people? So you ask those questions, but I think there's a difference between growing into your space and having imposter syndrome. I know a lot of people deal with imposter syndrome. It's not really one of my, one of my issues. I think it's okay to stumble through the beginning when you, like, if when we first started talking, you don't have a podcast. You've never started a podcast. Are you a podcaster?
Lindsey Epperly [00:06:52]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:06:53]:
As soon as you release an episode? Yes. Do you feel like a podcaster? Maybe, maybe not. Is that imposter syndrome or are you just learning a new role that you just actually don't know yet. So, of course you feel like an imposter because you don't know what you're doing, which is normal. Totally. And fine.
Lindsey Epperly [00:07:12]:
Yes. And, you know, I would agree with that because we always talk about, like, silencing the inner critic. What? I don't talk about that. I don't like that. I don't think it's healthy. I think it's actually, like, kind of like we're about to get into about burnout. Sometimes the things our society perceives as negative are actually the positives that are there to tell us. If you're hearing this, you're doing something right.
Lindsey Epperly [00:07:29]:
Right. Like, the idea of imposter syndrome, to me, is like, that means keep going because you're doing something new and outside of your comfort zone. So I love the take that you just had on that.
Cait Donovan [00:07:37]:
I had a podcast guest ages ago, too, Nina Blackshear, who I love, who said, if you want to stop feeling imposter syndrome, look at what you're lying about and stop lying. And I was like, oh, oh, but that's the truth, right? Yeah, that's part of it, too. So if you're having imposter syndrome because you're trying to sell $7,000 coaching packages to people that you've never met and you've never coached anyone before. Well, no. Like, no kidding.
Lindsey Epperly [00:08:10]:
Right? So this is just part of the process of figuring out, like, start where you are.
Cait Donovan [00:08:15]:
Start where you are.
Lindsey Epperly [00:08:16]:
It's not don't start.
Cait Donovan [00:08:18]:
Right. It's just start where you are. We need the help out here. Please start. Please follow what you think you should be doing and your callings and your inklings and your breadcrumbs and however, whatever universal connector word you want to use to get there, please do it. But if you feel like you totally own it from day one, you're missing something because you can't own something that you don't know all the pieces to. I'm a professional speaker. I hang out with a lot of other professional speakers and people who are trying to become professional speakers.
Cait Donovan [00:09:02]:
And one of the things that we don't understand is that becoming a professional speaker isn't about standing in front of people and speaking. It's about all of the milia that goes along with, like, if you don't know what a one sheet is, you're probably not a professional speaker yet. Yeah, which is fine. That's not the thing about that is people are judging that. Like, it's a bad thing. I didn't have a one sheet for the first year that I was speaking because I didn't know what the hell it was that you figure it out by doing it. I think we want to enter a new role and a new anything and just have all of the information because only then we feel ready and not impostering.
Lindsey Epperly [00:09:48]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:09:49]:
They give you a damn baby after you have it and send you home, and you don't know what to do with that thing. It's wiggling, and you're like, is it hungry? Right. I don't know.
Lindsey Epperly [00:09:57]:
Sometimes I wonder if this is not a byproduct from a culture of being able to, like, print your own business cards. You know, where you can just, like, print your own business card and you're. And you're going, well, what title should I put on the business card?
Cait Donovan [00:10:08]:
Right.
Lindsey Epperly [00:10:08]:
Some of it is. Well, I guess this is the title that I want to step into. And so I don't want to put, like, amateur speaker or amateur whatever, or I'm a wannabe entrepreneur. So sometimes it's. It's like figuring out the fact that, like, maybe you just don't even have to title it.
Cait Donovan [00:10:25]:
Like, maybe you don't have to title it, or maybe you do title it and you slowly learn the steps along the way and you understand.
Lindsey Epperly [00:10:33]:
Yeah. And you own that.
Cait Donovan [00:10:34]:
You own that.
Lindsey Epperly [00:10:35]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:10:36]:
I'm growing into a professional speaker, so, yeah, I had moments of discomfort, but I don't think of that as it didn't hold me back.
Lindsey Epperly [00:10:45]:
Yeah, I was curious, your take, because I feel like when I think about kind of the things that affect the modern workplace, like the gremlins in our heads. Right. Imposter syndrome is one. Perfectionism is another. Burnout is obviously one. And I think they all kind of tie into this, like, larger umbrella of control. And whether or not we have it or we need it or we want it or in the illusion of it and all of that. So because you are a burnout expert, it won't keep us on imposter syndrome too long.
Lindsey Epperly [00:11:09]:
I want to talk about actual burnout and how that manifests. And I love the language that you have created around it because you talk about, obviously, the branding is so good when it comes to fried the Burnout podcast. But when I hear you talk about, are you just a little bit burned out or are you extra crispy? Like, that just resonates so, so much. So I want listeners today to kind of, let's walk through this process of identifying burnout, identifying where we are. What do you feel like if you're a listener and you're going, you know, I've kind of felt a little bit off. How do you determine if it is actually burnout? Like, what does that litmus test look like?
Cait Donovan [00:11:44]:
So, first, because I'm a nerd, I always start with the World Health Organization definition because I think if we're not all at least talking about the same phenomenon, then we're making mistakes. So let's all get to .0 and. .0 is that the World Health Organization May 28, 1920 to 2019 decided that this is the definition of burnout. They have not updated it. I don't agree with the whole thing. However, it is what it is. Burnout has three components. The first is physical and mental exhaustion.
Cait Donovan [00:12:16]:
The second is cynicism and depersonalization. And the third is a lack of impact or lack of productivity. And all three of those things need to be present within a workplace scenario in order for something to be considered. Burnout. It is not a diagnosis. It is not in the DSM. You're none of that. So that's where we're starting.
Lindsey Epperly [00:12:37]:
Okay.
Cait Donovan [00:12:37]:
The reason I think this is ridiculous is because physical and emotional exhaustion is, like, every single symptom that you've ever had.
Lindsey Epperly [00:12:43]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:12:44]:
So where do we even begin?
Lindsey Epperly [00:12:46]:
Well, I'm a mother of two littles, so.
Cait Donovan [00:12:48]:
Yeah, exactly. Like, are you tired? Sure. Of course you are.
Lindsey Epperly [00:12:51]:
You burned out of mothering.
Cait Donovan [00:12:53]:
Which you could be.
Lindsey Epperly [00:12:54]:
Which you could. Yeah, that's true.
Cait Donovan [00:12:55]:
You could be. I think the other part that I disagree with is the fact that it is associated. It is currently a workplace phenomenon.
Lindsey Epperly [00:13:04]:
To that same point, it can be a home place situation as well.
Cait Donovan [00:13:08]:
Well, if you're working in your home, if you are a stay at home mother, you are working over full time in your home.
Lindsey Epperly [00:13:14]:
Yeah. That's why caretaker burnout is such a high.
Cait Donovan [00:13:18]:
Exactly. So that irritates me that we're still talking about, like, the workplace. And for entrepreneurs, that's a hard thing to. Because who made you the boss? Like, you're the boss. You made the rules, and now you've got to face the rules that you made.
Lindsey Epperly [00:13:33]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:13:33]:
So what the hell? So I don't like. I don't think it's perfect, but it's a. At least it's defined and it's a starting point. So that's starting point number one. Starting point number two is in order to decide if something is burnout, you need to differentiate it between burnout and stress.
Lindsey Epperly [00:13:49]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:13:49]:
Are you just stressed, or has that stress taken over and lasted long enough to create significant physiological changes in your body?
Lindsey Epperly [00:14:00]:
Okay. What does that look like to me.
Cait Donovan [00:14:03]:
There is a very clear line in the sand when it is still just stress. You can take a vacation or even just the weekend and get some rest in, and on Monday you're ready to go. Yeah, maybe you don't love your job, but, like, you have enough energy to go do it. When you're burnt out, you can sleep for a month and you are still exhausted, and nothing has improved and you have not recovered. Your body has lost its ability to bounce back.
Lindsey Epperly [00:14:32]:
Yes, the bounce back ability, as one might say, if they were to put out a book in the world that.
Cait Donovan [00:14:37]:
Everyone should, as one might.
Lindsey Epperly [00:14:40]:
Right.
Cait Donovan [00:14:40]:
So if you lose this ability to recover, you're in burnout.
Lindsey Epperly [00:14:48]:
Okay. That's the line that makes so much sense. So, Kate, what I'm very obsessed with is I think we're very focused oftentimes on burnout as, like, the symptom. Right? Like, this has happened, and so I am burned out. And you touched on this earlier of burnout can be the best thing that's ever happened to you. And when I look at burnout as a sign toward evolution, because anything you do cannot recover it when it comes to the stress management side, to your point, I found those have been the most fruitful moments in my entire professional life, is when I have burned out and realized something's got to give. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about when burnout is actually a gift and how we can use that to our advantage.
Cait Donovan [00:15:33]:
Except for just skip, like, the first six to nine months of recovery to get to the gift part.
Lindsey Epperly [00:15:38]:
Tell me about the recovery part, because I like you surrounding yourself with people. I did not. I did the diY, and I just was all a blur. So I want to hear it from a professional. Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:15:47]:
So this is. It is not going to feel like a gift for a very long time.
Lindsey Epperly [00:15:54]:
Good. Good leveling.
Cait Donovan [00:15:57]:
Took me years.
Lindsey Epperly [00:15:58]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:15:59]:
And when I say years, I don't mean six months. I mean literal, actual years of my life until I was like, oh, thank God that happened.
Lindsey Epperly [00:16:08]:
Yeah, that's true.
Cait Donovan [00:16:09]:
Was. Do not, please do not, under any circumstances, paint a silver lining on this before you are ready.
Lindsey Epperly [00:16:15]:
Great point. Great, great point.
Cait Donovan [00:16:17]:
So let's start with the fact that being burnt out is actually really terrible.
Lindsey Epperly [00:16:21]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:16:24]:
One of the reasons is that it's terrible is you said, like, recovery is as part of the stress management. I don't even mean the stress management. I mean, literally, you've lost brain cells and you need to regrow them somehow. I mean, your gut bacteria is a wreck.
Lindsey Epperly [00:16:38]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:16:39]:
And it needs to change because you're no longer getting nutrients from food. I mean, your muscles are atrophying and you can't exercise the way that you used to because you become so fatigued when you do it that you can barely function.
Lindsey Epperly [00:16:53]:
Right. So this is so akin to depression as well.
Cait Donovan [00:16:58]:
Can be that when you are someone who has a tendency toward depression, when you burn out, you will likely also be depressed. But for me, for instance, I tend toward anxiety. When I was burnt out, I was anxious as hell.
Lindsey Epperly [00:17:11]:
Yes.
Cait Donovan [00:17:12]:
I did not. I was not depressed.
Lindsey Epperly [00:17:14]:
Okay. I have multiple questions from all that you're sharing, and I want to come back to the anxiety, so. But for first, I want to talk about, you know, everything you just described, the physical sensations that are happening and the way that you can't even move your own body, the way that it used to say someone is listening, and they're like, that's me. Just nailed it. What is their first next step, essentially? Like, what is their. Their move from there? What do you do?
Cait Donovan [00:17:43]:
Honestly, you will probably not get the information that you need, but the first thing I want you to do is go see your doctor and get a full physical because we might find out that you are anemic or that your vitamin D is in the tank. Let's deal with those things before we get to any sort of, like, let's work on your mindset. If you just look at this situation differently, everything will be better. Like, no, bish, it will not. Yeah, because you can't do that right now. Like, you literally don't even have the capacity to do that right now. So first, let's physically do something for your body. The next thing we do in my business is called life pruning.
Cait Donovan [00:18:24]:
We start to look at your life and decide what things can be taken off your plate. That really won't make much of a difference at all. And as an entrepreneur, this is an extremely important exercise that you should be doing quarterly, because when you start your own business and you wear all 37 hats, you're the marketing department and the branding department, and the newsletter department, and the sales department and the product department. You're every department.
Lindsey Epperly [00:18:49]:
Yep.
Cait Donovan [00:18:52]:
What happens over time is you implemented things in the beginning that you are now continuing to do that are no longer doing anything for your business. But you never stopped to assess whether or not you should do them anymore.
Lindsey Epperly [00:19:05]:
Right?
Cait Donovan [00:19:06]:
Every single business goes through this, no matter the size, the seed money, the venture capital investment, or the, like side hustle that's paying for your other side. Hustle. I don't care how it happened or how big or small it is, you will have redundant practices in your business.
Lindsey Epperly [00:19:25]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:19:26]:
So if you're an entrepreneur and you're listening to this, it is time to look at some stuff and say, do I need this? Is this doing anything for my business?
Lindsey Epperly [00:19:36]:
Right.
Cait Donovan [00:19:37]:
The beginning in January, I did this this year, and I was looking, and I had two Instagram accounts, one for the podcast and one for me as a speaker. And I was like, meh, don't need that. Not doing that anymore. Yeah, don't want to do that anymore. So I put up a grid on the Instagram, on the podcast one. And I said, if you want more information and you want to follow what's going on in the podcast, go to my other one.
Lindsey Epperly [00:20:04]:
Beautiful.
Cait Donovan [00:20:04]:
So it's there. I didn't shut it down. I just am not using it at all. I'm tagging it sometimes.
Lindsey Epperly [00:20:13]:
Yes.
Cait Donovan [00:20:13]:
And then. But then people will find it and still go back to me. Right. So there's. It's just no one needs to do two instagram accounts anymore.
Lindsey Epperly [00:20:22]:
Everything you're saying, and this is why I think that those moments of burnout really were what helped level my business and myself up, is because you do start taking inventory at that point and realizing you do, because what got you here won't get you there. And the fact that you are completely stuck means something's gotta give. And I think everything you're describing is so helpful because it's two points of one, what are the things we can stop doing that are redundant? But two, what are the things that we can stop doing and give to someone else? Because we don't need to be the ones that are doing them. Like, that's the whole point of growth and evolution. And it's awfully so scary at the moment to think, well, I've always been the number one travel salesperson in my company. How could I possibly stop selling travel in order to build the company? Right? But that's necessary because you can't keep doing it all and wearing all the hats.
Cait Donovan [00:21:09]:
Amen. Oftentimes, people struggle with this process. This is where the resentment journal mini course comes in.
Lindsey Epperly [00:21:16]:
Tell me more. Because the title alone of resentment journal.
Cait Donovan [00:21:20]:
When you are burnt out, the worst advice you could possibly accept from anyone is do a gratitude journal. Write down three things that you're really grateful for every day before you go to bed. And so you get into bed and you get your stupid little notebook and your stupid little pen to write your stupid little gratitude list. And you write family, house, food. But you're mad when you're doing it, and you're annoyed that you have to do it. And then you're self judging because you don't actually feel the gratitude that you know you should feel for these things. These are wonderful things that you have that most of the world that maybe doesn't have. And so you should be granted.
Cait Donovan [00:21:56]:
So then you feel guilty.
Lindsey Epperly [00:21:58]:
Right. Right.
Cait Donovan [00:21:59]:
It's not helping you. It's like, permission to throw out your gratitude journal if you're burnt out. Granted.
Lindsey Epperly [00:22:05]:
And build a resentment journal instead.
Cait Donovan [00:22:07]:
Get the resentment journal. The resentment journal is your lowest hanging fruit. When you're burnt out.
Lindsey Epperly [00:22:12]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:22:13]:
You're mad, you're rageful. You want to explode at people all the time. You are full of resentment.
Lindsey Epperly [00:22:19]:
Mm hmm.
Cait Donovan [00:22:20]:
We are not taught what to do with resentment. We are not taught it's acceptable. And if you are in a church community, it's like an evil emotion.
Lindsey Epperly [00:22:29]:
Yeah. I mean, well, to your point. That's why I think it's such a catchy title alone. Because the word resentment, just. You can feel it in your gut, right, when you even think about it. And then you feel shame that you feel it.
Cait Donovan [00:22:41]:
But what if we could use it? So we look at resentment. I have people. There's a whole process. Pay attention. Start writing down things you're resentful for. Then there's a question. Sieve. Ask these questions.
Cait Donovan [00:22:54]:
You become an observer of your resentment instead of an experiencer of your resentment, and you say, okay, well, if this is the scenario, then what would I need to do and how would I need to act and who would I need to be in order for this to shift?
Lindsey Epperly [00:23:07]:
Right?
Cait Donovan [00:23:07]:
What needs to happen? The results are dropping it. So that's the life pruning portion. Delegating it. Like you said, someone else can do this. Upgrading a tool. So maybe you've been using Google Calendar, and now you're moving to calendly, so you don't have to manage. You don't have to put in a link every time it does it automatically. And it only cost you $12.99 a month.
Lindsey Epperly [00:23:29]:
Wonderful.
Cait Donovan [00:23:29]:
You know, like, yay. And so what needs to be dropped? What needs to be delegated, what needs to be upgraded? And then what internal boundaries do I need to put into place? I'll get to back to that in a second. And what external boundaries need to be put into place? Internal boundaries, folks. Your internal boundaries are how you protect your own time, energy, money, values, joy.
Lindsey Epperly [00:24:02]:
Okay, so what is that? What options do you have there in.
Cait Donovan [00:24:05]:
Protecting those, your internal boundaries are about not over committing, not over giving. You don't usually have to say no. Yet here, often, these are just happening within yourself. You just have to stop overstepping boundaries. You have to stop meddling. You have to stop fixing things for people. You have to stop entering yourself into every equation because you think if you solve everything for everyone, they will love you. Because you've been solving things for people probably for about 30 years, and they do not care and they have not learned how to solve things for themselves.
Cait Donovan [00:24:43]:
If your kids are opening the fridge and saying, I'm hungry, there's nothing to eat, and you start either listing all of the things that are in various Tupperware containers with the color lid that they have on, or you walk over to the fridge to show them where things are, you are teaching them nothing, and you are overexerting yourself unnecessarily. This is an internal boundary. I'm hungry. Eh? I trust that you'll find something isn't your new response.
Lindsey Epperly [00:25:12]:
At a certain age?
Cait Donovan [00:25:13]:
Of course.
Lindsey Epperly [00:25:14]:
Haven't been able to tell my one year old that yet.
Cait Donovan [00:25:15]:
Of course.
Lindsey Epperly [00:25:16]:
No.
Cait Donovan [00:25:17]:
Well, your one year old is also not saying, mom, I'm in the fridge and there's nothing to eat.
Lindsey Epperly [00:25:21]:
What's so amazing to me about your approach is it feels like a cold bucket of ice water. Right? Like, it feels like a reality check in the face of all the fluffy, other very, like, not fluffy, cakey fluff on the, you know, which. Which is lovely, but probably not going to do the trick against something that is fried. Whereas nice cold water absolutely will. Right? Like, we need a dousing of reality when we're in this place.
Cait Donovan [00:25:54]:
And we need to understand that unwinding burnout comes down to making different decision about different decisions about what's in your external world. So if you're at a workplace that's exploiting you and you stay at that workplace.
Lindsey Epperly [00:26:09]:
Yeah, yeah. Yes. That's why. And I'm going to link to this, I've shared this before in my newsletter because it was such a good episode. But the episode that you did where you talk about essentially what is an employee's responsibility and what is an employer's responsibility. I've referenced it so many times as an employer because it helps me understand, oh, here's how I can help take care of my people. But then also as a human who works for a company, even though it's my company, still working for a company, what can I realistically expect for my company to do? And to your point, if it's a. If it's a workplace that's not taking those measures, that's something that you can quantify and get yourself out of if necessary.
Cait Donovan [00:26:43]:
And sometimes it takes some planning, and sometimes it's annoying, and sometimes you don't get a job right away. And I'm not suggesting anybody quit tomorrow without any jobs lined up. I've never been in a financial position where I could just stop working. That's never been an option for me. So I'm not saying, I'm not recommending it for, for anybody else, but will you need to create an exit strategy? Will you need to start working on that? Should that be the only thing you're doing right now for your recovery? Yeah, probably.
Lindsey Epperly [00:27:11]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:27:11]:
If the situation is such that it is completely untenable, right? Yeah, but that's part of it. And then unwinding all of the reasons that you're stuck in patterns of people pleasing and perfectionism and hyper vigilance and hyper independence and all of that, unwinding those bits, if you don't unwind those, you take them with you. It's really hard to take advantage of somebody that has good boundaries. So if you're being exploited or taking advantage of, you've got to do this part. And in some scenarios, it won't work. That's how you know the scenario is toxic and you got to go, but you have to know where you're allowing things to come in before you can make those shifts. So your internal boundaries are the things that you agree with and the things that you overstep into that you're not really outwardly being asked. Like, all of a sudden, you're the person that brings cupcakes for everybody's birthday because you brought them in for Sally.
Cait Donovan [00:28:16]:
You. Your first year on a Tuesday, and now you're the cupcake lady. And you're so mad about being the cupcake lady, but you've made up this rule that everyone expects it, so now you do it. Well, change the rule. Don't bring the cupcakes next time. This is not a conversation you have to have with people.
Lindsey Epperly [00:28:33]:
Right.
Cait Donovan [00:28:34]:
You don't have to do anything.
Lindsey Epperly [00:28:36]:
You know, when you. When you talk about the people pleasing and all of this aspect, I kind of took note of what you said earlier, that in certain stages, you go to a more anxious personality type and toward anxiety. And that resonates as I do as well. And for the longest time, I was telling myself the lie that my anxiety was necessary to fuel my ambition.
Cait Donovan [00:28:55]:
Right.
Lindsey Epperly [00:28:56]:
Because I had been successful on this upward trajectory of more, more, more and a lack of contentment. And that all came from that, like, really weird buzzy sensation in my chest that I just said, well, that's just part of me. I guess that's just part of it. And addressing that was so momental to getting me out of my own burnout. So I'd love to hear your thoughts around that as well, you know, like, because what you're describing is really getting to know yourself and your mental health and all of the intricacies of that. Does it come with anxiety? Does it come with depression? Does it come with people pleasing? Does it, like, is. Is this part of the resentment journal? How do you, like, how do you figure that stuff out? Is this therapy?
Cait Donovan [00:29:33]:
It can be therapy, yeah, I recommend therapy a lot.
Lindsey Epperly [00:29:36]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:29:36]:
And it depends on what you're facing, because to me, the anxiety is secondary to the other things, so. Or really primary to the other things. Like, I'm anxious, so I people, please. I'm anxious that I won't be liked, so I people, please. So then the work is the same, actually, either way. When people come in and they're like, I'm a people pleaser. I can't stop it. I can't help myself.
Cait Donovan [00:29:59]:
I don't know what to do. I'm like, okay, well, your job is to go disappoint one person a day this week. And they're like, I can't do it. I'm like, you can, actually. But what we think, when you start to really explore the things that you think will disappoint people, and how many times you're pretzeling yourself during the day to avoid that disappointment, you start to see that it gets a little bit silly. Like, for instance, we were going for a hike recently. My husband and I get dressed, go downstairs, we get the dog in the harness. We are, dog is on a leash, we are opening the door.
Cait Donovan [00:30:35]:
He opens the door, goes, walks out to the car. Then I realize I have to go to the bathroom. I am fully dressed. My shoes are on, you know, my jacket's on, but I have to go to the bathroom. Five years ago, I would have just gotten in the car, gone for the hike, been annoyed for the whole hike. My husband would have taken a wrong left turn somewhere because he always does that would have added 2 miles to our hike that I didn't want to hike in the first place. And now I really don't want to hike because I. My bladder is about to fall out of my body.
Cait Donovan [00:31:11]:
Then we get back in the car, and I'm figuring he's like, I want to stop and grab a sandwich. And I'm like, mother, no.
Lindsey Epperly [00:31:18]:
Yes.
Cait Donovan [00:31:18]:
Like we. I need.
Lindsey Epperly [00:31:21]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:31:22]:
Would have destroyed our whole day all.
Lindsey Epperly [00:31:25]:
Because you were afraid to. Afraid to say, yeah, I'm going to.
Cait Donovan [00:31:30]:
Go to the bathroom. Can you wait 100 seconds for me? Because that's about how long it will take for me to go to the bathroom and put my clothes back on and wash my hands.
Lindsey Epperly [00:31:42]:
Right.
Cait Donovan [00:31:42]:
So when we think about disappointing people, I think people are often thinking about these massive events, but you are avoiding disappointing people in the smallest of ways. All day, every day, when people open the fridge and you're already listing the food, you not listing the food, you are afraid is going to disappoint them. And they might be a little about it at first. Let me tell you. They'll get over it, right? They'll get over it. So we have to, in order to quell the anxiety about being disliked by not people pleasing, we have to actively disappoint people and gather enough data that we can do that frequently enough and still be appreciated, loved, paid attention to, enjoyed, et cetera.
Lindsey Epperly [00:32:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, first of all, I feel like we could keep going for hours because this is so fascinating, and this is why you have an entire podcast where listeners, you can get so much more of Kate out of that. I want to kind of end on that point because I believe so many of us. I mean, first, you've just chalked this episode already full of tangible takeaways and things that if you are feeling any level of burnout, you can start today to work toward. Um, but the people pleasing part is where I want to end, because that is something I think we need to sit with, at least by we, I mean myself, right? Asking for a friend here. I need to sit with that because as much as I feel like I have moved forward from people pleasing tendencies or that anxiety that drives it, I've never linked the two. I've never realized the anxiety was related to the anxiousness of not being liked.
Lindsey Epperly [00:33:10]:
And where does that come in with people pleasing that is, Kate, such good stuff. And this whole conversation has been such good stuff, really. Thank you for it. Before we wrap up, a couple more questions for you. I've mentioned fried a number of times because I'm such a fan of the podcast. How can people connect with you, follow you? What is the best next step for them to become involved in everything? Kate Donovan the best thing is, honestly.
Cait Donovan [00:33:35]:
To search fried the burnout podcast and it will send you to all things me.
Lindsey Epperly [00:33:39]:
Done.
Cait Donovan [00:33:40]:
Beautiful.
Lindsey Epperly [00:33:42]:
My last question is something I ask everyone, and it is because we do work toward cultivating gratitude. I do think that is an important part of mindset. I know we've given a lot of side eye to the fluff side of things, and I agree with you that there is a really important depending on what part of the process you're in and what season you're in, right. Next step when it comes to that cold dose of reality. But when we are cultivating the gratitude, as we try to do every night around the dinner table, we always ask one another, what is one thing that made you smile today? And I am curious to ask you that as my guest, what is one thing that made you smile today?
Cait Donovan [00:34:14]:
I had a new client reach out and book me for an event within a 15 minutes conversation because they just experienced me at another event and they had no questions. They were like, are you available? Can we pay you? And I said, yes, yes, and yes, yes. And I love gratitude at the right moments. What I don't love is people trying to use it when it's not available to them. Gratitude has been shown in the research to be especially useful when there is a flood of emotions that comes with it. So if you see something and you feel awe or you have that moment of gratitude and it just, you know that when it floods your body and you feel it, it's really useful, then you just can't do that when you're burnt out.
Lindsey Epperly [00:34:59]:
Totally. Well, that's. That's the whole point of not pouring from an empty cup. There's nothing to flood your body in that situation.
Cait Donovan [00:35:05]:
It makes perfect sense, your body. But when you're recovering and you get back to that and you can stop and smell the flowers, talk to each other about your gratitude, find that perspective. Sure.
Lindsey Epperly [00:35:17]:
Yeah.
Cait Donovan [00:35:18]:
Just if you can't get it and it's in your face and it's making you feel bad about yourself, you can drop it.
Lindsey Epperly [00:35:25]:
Yes. Amazing. Permission given in this episode toward so much that we encounter as not just professionals, but as humans. Thank you so much for being on. Who made you the boss?
Cait Donovan [00:35:35]:
Thanks for having me.